I've been through about 20 pages of posts on here and have not found any real success or preferences of the current state of getting into canning on the nano scale. Many of the direct fill or counter pressure can fillers seem really expensive for a few John Guest fittings, a few solenoids, $50 worth of gauges and some impressive stainless to cover up the simplicity of what you just paid a princely sum for. Granted, I may be over-simplifying and I do believe a mechanical engineer who figures something out for our scale of brewing should be compensated justly but it seems like a counter-pressure one head filler could be done for $500 or less, so a four head should be do-able for $2000 to $2500 or less. So why aren't they? This isn't black box stuff here, just simple physics, a slight amount of chemistry, and the hardware we can pull down from any number of sources on the internet. Granted, more automation would demand more money, but for our scale, high automation is not the goal here.
This is the dynamic those of us in the nano or brewpub side of things face: economy of scale works against us when it comes to grain, yeast, hops, packaging, etc. Aside from that, most of use boot-strapped our brewpub or nano on a tight budget to get going. Our most profitable beer is the one we are pouring into that 68 cent Libby pint "mixing" glass, we use 600 or 800 times a year in our tap room. Going into cans seems fool-hardy because of the increased packaging cost with the consumer expectation that a pint can of beer should cost no more than $2.50 or $3.00 per can. For a nano to grow though, you have to get your beer into other places other than the tap room.
Personally, I will go to budget and prices first, so when I see something compelling that would fit our size and should be within our budget on a Saturday night while I'm surfing the web and relaxing, it's a real turn-off when I need to call customer service or send a web inquiry which may or may not be answered within a week.
For the ones who will post a price, I've found a few tempting options on line like the Dani can filler and Xpressfill open and counter pressure fillers but can only find limited feedback from either happy or unhappy customers. I'm reluctant to dump $4000 to $5000 into a system I may or may not be able to get good support for when cans are over-foaming, taking in too much O2, etc. There's just not much feedback for the type of filling equipment we need which looks promising. I think Oktober and All American have enough positive reviews to think of them as the gold standard for can seaming, so it really only calls into credibility reliable and easy to use can fillers and reasonably priced can suppliers and whether or not shrink wrapped is better than your own self-adhesive labels over slicks.
For sake of discussion, let's say $7.5K and up filling and seaming solutions are off topic for this conversation, so whatever solution you have for $7500 or less is in play here (way less would be best!). This is based on the assumption someone could get going with an Xpressfill counter-pressure two head filler and an Oktober 16 oz seamer as the most expensive nano options for around $7500 if you want something quickly delivered and within budget. I'd like to see some solutions for $3K or less for us smaller brewers because they have to be out there.
(FWIW, Oktober advertises your seamer will ship 2 weeks ARO. That's not at all accurate- they had ours on the truck the next day ARO. I love a company which under-promises and over-delivers!).
I'm also overwhelmed by all the printing companies who suddenly have gotten into the canning business or is that vice versa? This is other issue I've found after sending queries to multiple can companies for shrink label cans is that pint can costs are all over the place and you have to double check to make sure your quote includes crowns, the shrink label already on the cans, no hidden design charges, tariffs, customer service fees, etc. and then finding a vendor close enough to justify the shipping costs to your brewery.
Personally, I just got our Oktober 19.2MK seamer and some cans to work with to perfect what we are trying to do. I also found some Zahm & Nagel lab equipment on eBay awhile back which included three counter pressure can fill heads I've yet to play with, and this may all play out as being all we need at this point. I want to go to four packs of pint cans for out the door packaging and to sell to area bars and restaurants with limited or no tap space in a 50-100 mile radius.
We are in a remote part of the U.S. southwest. We have many tourists with a thirst for "boutique" craft beer they can take home and locals are finally waking up as to why craft offerings are vastly superior to the macrobrews they were raised on but at $5 or $6 a pint they keep making the same bland purchases at the corner store and might buy one or two pints a week at my place because that's all they can justify on a retiree or day laborer's budget. From an economist's stand-point, I get it: Be happy with the $10 a week from that customer drinking from the aforementioned .68 cent Libby glass we re-use 600-800 times a year and not adding $.50 to $.75 to the cost of selling that guest a beer at 1/3 to 1/2 the price per pint in cans for take out. I mean really, why sell someone four pints of beer I normally charge $5.00, in the pub, for $2.50 to $3.00 a pint in a package that costs .50 to .75 per pint? Even in a growler, they pay me $4.00 a pint.
Or I could look at it this way: they give $12 for four pints they can take home and share with friends who might also finally come in to commiserate with their buddies at the tap room once or twice a week and add their highly profitable $5 to $6 per pint "in-the-pub" contribution to our till. It also increases our reach when the bar 40 miles away starts selling a lot of our beer and those locals come in as a day excursion to drink it "right off the tap" and decide to have $40 in food with their group. So there is justification for it and increases in volume make it easier to pay for larger equipment as your brand grows.
For a nano brewery or brewpub, cans are probably more of a marketing item which provides some profit to the operation at the point of sale, but it can do an awful lot to get more tourists in who tried a beer a friend brought them and they end up coming in for a few pints, a full meal, and maybe $10-$20 in merch purchases.
Here's what I'm after with this thread:
-Best DIY or commercial can fillers either open or counter-pressure (remember, this package with a seamer needs to be <$7500 total for a brewery and can be operated on a table top.)
-Best pricing and reliable delivery for 12 and 16 oz. shrink wrapped cans
-Better to go with slick cans and a separate labeling vendor?
-Great DIY vinyl inkjet label program or templates which are "COLA ready" and easy to apply?
Any other pertinent thoughts or ideas?
This is the dynamic those of us in the nano or brewpub side of things face: economy of scale works against us when it comes to grain, yeast, hops, packaging, etc. Aside from that, most of use boot-strapped our brewpub or nano on a tight budget to get going. Our most profitable beer is the one we are pouring into that 68 cent Libby pint "mixing" glass, we use 600 or 800 times a year in our tap room. Going into cans seems fool-hardy because of the increased packaging cost with the consumer expectation that a pint can of beer should cost no more than $2.50 or $3.00 per can. For a nano to grow though, you have to get your beer into other places other than the tap room.
Personally, I will go to budget and prices first, so when I see something compelling that would fit our size and should be within our budget on a Saturday night while I'm surfing the web and relaxing, it's a real turn-off when I need to call customer service or send a web inquiry which may or may not be answered within a week.
For the ones who will post a price, I've found a few tempting options on line like the Dani can filler and Xpressfill open and counter pressure fillers but can only find limited feedback from either happy or unhappy customers. I'm reluctant to dump $4000 to $5000 into a system I may or may not be able to get good support for when cans are over-foaming, taking in too much O2, etc. There's just not much feedback for the type of filling equipment we need which looks promising. I think Oktober and All American have enough positive reviews to think of them as the gold standard for can seaming, so it really only calls into credibility reliable and easy to use can fillers and reasonably priced can suppliers and whether or not shrink wrapped is better than your own self-adhesive labels over slicks.
For sake of discussion, let's say $7.5K and up filling and seaming solutions are off topic for this conversation, so whatever solution you have for $7500 or less is in play here (way less would be best!). This is based on the assumption someone could get going with an Xpressfill counter-pressure two head filler and an Oktober 16 oz seamer as the most expensive nano options for around $7500 if you want something quickly delivered and within budget. I'd like to see some solutions for $3K or less for us smaller brewers because they have to be out there.
(FWIW, Oktober advertises your seamer will ship 2 weeks ARO. That's not at all accurate- they had ours on the truck the next day ARO. I love a company which under-promises and over-delivers!).
I'm also overwhelmed by all the printing companies who suddenly have gotten into the canning business or is that vice versa? This is other issue I've found after sending queries to multiple can companies for shrink label cans is that pint can costs are all over the place and you have to double check to make sure your quote includes crowns, the shrink label already on the cans, no hidden design charges, tariffs, customer service fees, etc. and then finding a vendor close enough to justify the shipping costs to your brewery.
Personally, I just got our Oktober 19.2MK seamer and some cans to work with to perfect what we are trying to do. I also found some Zahm & Nagel lab equipment on eBay awhile back which included three counter pressure can fill heads I've yet to play with, and this may all play out as being all we need at this point. I want to go to four packs of pint cans for out the door packaging and to sell to area bars and restaurants with limited or no tap space in a 50-100 mile radius.
We are in a remote part of the U.S. southwest. We have many tourists with a thirst for "boutique" craft beer they can take home and locals are finally waking up as to why craft offerings are vastly superior to the macrobrews they were raised on but at $5 or $6 a pint they keep making the same bland purchases at the corner store and might buy one or two pints a week at my place because that's all they can justify on a retiree or day laborer's budget. From an economist's stand-point, I get it: Be happy with the $10 a week from that customer drinking from the aforementioned .68 cent Libby glass we re-use 600-800 times a year and not adding $.50 to $.75 to the cost of selling that guest a beer at 1/3 to 1/2 the price per pint in cans for take out. I mean really, why sell someone four pints of beer I normally charge $5.00, in the pub, for $2.50 to $3.00 a pint in a package that costs .50 to .75 per pint? Even in a growler, they pay me $4.00 a pint.
Or I could look at it this way: they give $12 for four pints they can take home and share with friends who might also finally come in to commiserate with their buddies at the tap room once or twice a week and add their highly profitable $5 to $6 per pint "in-the-pub" contribution to our till. It also increases our reach when the bar 40 miles away starts selling a lot of our beer and those locals come in as a day excursion to drink it "right off the tap" and decide to have $40 in food with their group. So there is justification for it and increases in volume make it easier to pay for larger equipment as your brand grows.
For a nano brewery or brewpub, cans are probably more of a marketing item which provides some profit to the operation at the point of sale, but it can do an awful lot to get more tourists in who tried a beer a friend brought them and they end up coming in for a few pints, a full meal, and maybe $10-$20 in merch purchases.
Here's what I'm after with this thread:
-Best DIY or commercial can fillers either open or counter-pressure (remember, this package with a seamer needs to be <$7500 total for a brewery and can be operated on a table top.)
-Best pricing and reliable delivery for 12 and 16 oz. shrink wrapped cans
-Better to go with slick cans and a separate labeling vendor?
-Great DIY vinyl inkjet label program or templates which are "COLA ready" and easy to apply?
Any other pertinent thoughts or ideas?
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