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Thermal Fluid Systems to replace boiler

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  • Thermal Fluid Systems to replace boiler

    I'm running my 15BBL brewhouse with a 30year old Fulton steam boiler that is still kicking steam but it could be the end of it. It was hardly maintained where it was before and there has been no chemical treatment either straight city water in and steam out.

    As much as I would like to buy a new one... they are pricey. I could go used again too.

    I've been seeing a lot more of those thermal fuild systems out there. Prospero and ABE has those brewhouse.

    I would I go about sizing a thermal fluid heating system? Steam boilers rule of thumb is 1HP/BBL. Is there such easy approach to thermal systems? If I consider 1 mechanical HP for 0.75kw then I don't need much more than a 10kw element in that circulation tube but it makes no sense that it would be so small. It also depends on the pipe run on the supply side and the insulation on that pipe. The return as equally important to not lose heat returning to the buffer tank. The thermal fluid would run at 240F, same as saturated steam at 15psi.

    I've read a lot on those thermal fluid system and I can build one no problem. The only missing link is the required KW for the element. Don't want it too big because it will take more amps than it needs and not too small either making hard to reach a boil.

    Any information would be great!

    Thanks!
    Cheers!
    ______________

    Mario Bourgeois
    www.CasselBrewery.ca
    Casselman ON Canada

  • #2
    You already have a piping and all supporting vessels. Replacing boiler box is a small portion of over all boiler system.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Thirsty_Monk View Post
      You already have a piping and all supporting vessels. Replacing boiler box is a small portion of over all boiler system.
      I'm fully aware of that but I can get a thermal system for much cheaper than a boiler and still keep the same piping less the condensate traps. Plus going with a new boiler means I will be inclined to add a water softner and chemical treatment.

      My question was not about if I should buy a new boiler or not but about thermal systems and how it compares.
      Cheers!
      ______________

      Mario Bourgeois
      www.CasselBrewery.ca
      Casselman ON Canada

      Comment


      • #4
        Are you talking electric oil heating brewhouse?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Thirsty_Monk View Post
          Are you talking electric oil heating brewhouse?
          Same concept except the heating system is separate from the brewhouse much like a steam boiler.
          Cheers!
          ______________

          Mario Bourgeois
          www.CasselBrewery.ca
          Casselman ON Canada

          Comment


          • #6
            Been there, would advise against oil...

            Here's a thread I started *a few* years back when I was consulting on a start-up brewery that was using thermal transfer oil:

            Short answer: no. If oil was viable, you'd see a lot of brewers using it. Do you?!?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by BeerBoy View Post
              Here's a thread I started *a few* years back when I was consulting on a start-up brewery that was using thermal transfer oil:

              Short answer: no. If oil was viable, you'd see a lot of brewers using it. Do you?!?
              Thanks for the share! although the info provided is not conclusive. Especially when it comes to the use of thermal systems in industries. Those thermal system are widely use in the food a beverage industry and effectively too.

              Why would Prospero and ABE sell such system?

              And the myth thermal system are more dangerous than steam? Steam is corrosive and under pressure. Thermal system are not corrosive and there is no pressure. The chances for a pipe to have a pin hole in schedule 40 black pipe and spit hot oil around is very slim.

              Hot spot concern is interesting.

              I'm very intrigue by the fact that thermal system are so widely use in the food and beverage industry (so is steam) but yet we don't see them in breweries. From what I was told by Fulton is that the basic thermal kit is 100K so I think its just a cost issue not its safety and effectiveness.

              I'm presently talking with engineers about a small scale system that is affordable and has a small footprint.

              Would be nice to hear from someone who work on a brewhouse that is thermally heated like the ones in Germany that was mentionned.
              Cheers!
              ______________

              Mario Bourgeois
              www.CasselBrewery.ca
              Casselman ON Canada

              Comment


              • #8
                When I worked the research field we used systems like this for bio-reactors. I believe they were referred to as hydronic oil heating systems, but itÂ’s been a while. We used steam, glycol, anhydrous, and many other thermal media systems for different reasons. The reason we used hydronic oil was to slowly and accurately control temperature (on the high end) as opposed to a quicker reacting (both up and down) steam system.

                In general I have found both Hydronic oil and Steam systems are often the building “hardware” that is present and being purposed to the need. Newer installations or buildings tend to be Steam, Gas or Electric.

                Please donÂ’t take this negative, but I see a lot of rationalization of the downsides on the hydronic system. Are you expecting more benefits from introducing this system beyond avoiding water softener and anti-scaleant? Simply the dollar investment of a boiler vs the oil system? I try to ask myself two questions. Will this make my end product better? Can I improve efficiency without compromising (or risking) quality?

                Personally I think it would be a mistake to switch heating methods. If you are an existing facility with product out, I would be extremely concerned about differences in new product coming out. There may be a phase-change, so to speak. YouÂ’ve also got to learn a new equipment concept and maintenance. You will also have to build a support structure of peers, as you can see there is not a lot of responses of hydronic oil users so far.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I know two breweries in my area that heat with oil. Equipment was provided by Minnetonka.

                  One brewhouse is 5BBL the other one is 7BBL. Oil is heated with electricity. BK and HLT sits in oil bath jacket and each vessel has eating element. There is no oil recirculating to my knowledge.

                  Systems are not maintenance free and without danger. In one if those systems heating elements exploded and person got hurt.

                  Heating with electricity is way more expensive then to heat with natural gas. May be you have your own power plant and that is no issue.

                  You have to change oil every so often and then you have to dispose of it.

                  Once vessel heats up, it does not want to cool down.

                  Now you are talking about distributed heating with oil. You have said that ABE is providing stuff like this. Please asked then and report back.

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