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Thread: Cans killing foam

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
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    New Zealand
    Posts
    2

    Cans killing foam

    Hey everyone. QA Manager from NZ here 1st post. Had an issue this week after canning our lager. Bright beer tank was tested and foam stability was really good. After sampling the cans they just all seem to have really poor foam now. They foam up but then instantly start dying to nothing. I have cleaned the glasses myself and seems to be happening with every can.

    Has anyone had this happen before? Can I go straight to the can manufacturer? Any quick tests I can do to prove there is a problem with the cans/can ends?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Stuart, FL
    Posts
    473
    Quote Originally Posted by olibird View Post
    Hey everyone. QA Manager from NZ here 1st post. Had an issue this week after canning our lager. Bright beer tank was tested and foam stability was really good. After sampling the cans they just all seem to have really poor foam now. They foam up but then instantly start dying to nothing. I have cleaned the glasses myself and seems to be happening with every can.

    Has anyone had this happen before? Can I go straight to the can manufacturer? Any quick tests I can do to prove there is a problem with the cans/can ends?
    Having stood it two of the largest can producing factories in the world, you’ll want to have some evidence before you go accusing the manufacturer. These are generally top-notch operations with instense automation and rigorous QA/QC specs. They will likely be able to pull specs from your lot of cans proving that they meet standards. Since they contract to so many vendors, it would be very unlikely that only you would experience an issue (unless it’s printing related).

    So far it sounds like you suspect an issue with cans based on one brand and one canning run. Not much reason/evidence to think the cans are to blame based on the post. I would thoroughly vet your process.

    Are your cans run through a rinse tunnel prior to being filled? Are they filled directly off the pallet without rinse? What are you using to clean/sanitize and what concentration? What are your carbonation levels pre and post filling? Have you replaced any parts or pieces recently? Any other actions that might have introduced manufacturing grease or oils? What line are you running?

    Bench test - Take a few empty cans, clean them - one by light caustic <1% and rinse, one with PAA at 165ppm no rinse, and one with plain H2O only. Go over to your taps or tank and pour a pint in a proper glass, observe the foam. Pour into the cans, let me sit for a just a min or two and pour back into a pint glass. Observe the difference and record results.

    Can liners can be a problem in some circumstances, but this is not common. It’s usually related to pH levels that are outside normal beer ranges (sours). You should approach the manufacture about the issue, especially after bench testing, but be prepared to realize the can is probably not the issue.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Moab, Utah
    Posts
    586

    About Canning Lager

    Quote Originally Posted by olibird View Post
    Hey everyone. QA Manager from NZ here 1st post. Had an issue this week after canning our lager. Bright beer tank was tested and foam stability was really good. After sampling the cans they just all seem to have really poor foam now. They foam up but then instantly start dying to nothing. I have cleaned the glasses myself and seems to be happening with every can.

    Has anyone had this happen before? Can I go straight to the can manufacturer? Any quick tests I can do to prove there is a problem with the cans/can ends?
    I would have to ask what is your carbonation set to on that beer, how is your filler really performing as in correct full weight of cans, and what temp are you coming over to the line at?
    Its been noted that Lager is a different animal with respect to canning, and the carbonation needs to be higher than with standard ales when canning. Also the way that style of beer foams and laces is different to others. Your problem most likely is not with the cans.
    Warren Turner
    Industrial Engineering Technician
    HVACR-Electrical Systems Specialist
    Moab Brewery
    " No Cell Phone Zone."

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by UnFermentable View Post
    Having stood it two of the largest can producing factories in the world, you’ll want to have some evidence before you go accusing the manufacturer. These are generally top-notch operations with instense automation and rigorous QA/QC specs. They will likely be able to pull specs from your lot of cans proving that they meet standards. Since they contract to so many vendors, it would be very unlikely that only you would experience an issue (unless it’s printing related).

    So far it sounds like you suspect an issue with cans based on one brand and one canning run. Not much reason/evidence to think the cans are to blame based on the post. I would thoroughly vet your process.

    Are your cans run through a rinse tunnel prior to being filled? Are they filled directly off the pallet without rinse? What are you using to clean/sanitize and what concentration? What are your carbonation levels pre and post filling? Have you replaced any parts or pieces recently? Any other actions that might have introduced manufacturing grease or oils? What line are you running?

    Bench test - Take a few empty cans, clean them - one by light caustic <1% and rinse, one with PAA at 165ppm no rinse, and one with plain H2O only. Go over to your taps or tank and pour a pint in a proper glass, observe the foam. Pour into the cans, let me sit for a just a min or two and pour back into a pint glass. Observe the difference and record results.

    Can liners can be a problem in some circumstances, but this is not common. It’s usually related to pH levels that are outside normal beer ranges (sours). You should approach the manufacture about the issue, especially after bench testing, but be prepared to realize the can is probably not the issue.
    Thanks for such good advice. Cans run on Codi CCL 45. No visible grease or anything on the seamers/filling heads.

    Yes I'm looking at our rinser operation. The cans are rinsed on a twist rinse with a 165 ppm PAA. Loading onto rinser is by hand. I'm just double checking that all of the packaging staff know to use new gloves and to change them when they touch anything else.

    We are using warm caustic @ 2 % to clean followed by water rinse. Then either hot water sanitize or PAA @ 165 ppm depending on the product we are running.

    Did the testing with cans etc from the same batch and foam stability was good in all cases. Even used an unrinsed and rinsed can taken off the line today.

    So making me think that its a problem with the beer/loading of cans onto the rinser.

    Beer pH was 4.1 in BBT and CO2 tested @ 2.6 vol then 2.5 in cans.

    Issue is isolated to the cans only from the BBT so definitely through packaging.

    Cheers

    Oli

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Chesterfield, UK
    Posts
    1,930
    Filler / rinser greasing / maintenance using non suitable grease?

    Have you serviced any kit, such as pumps or valves and not thoroughly degreased before use?

    Unlikely to be operators not changing gloves as this is likely to be limited to selected cans, not all. And as already said - highly unlikely to be can or can end suppliers.

    Look to identify what has happened maintenance / cleaning wise between last acceptable batch and the unacceptable batch. That is why you should have traceability in the form of cleaning / maintenance records.
    dick

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