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Thread: Brite Tank Freezing Outside

  1. #1
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    Brite Tank Freezing Outside

    I have a super small 3black brewery last year I had the great idea to try and fit a 6black brite into it to not have to use my fermenters as unitanks.

    Long story but I got a great deal on this brite tank but the only issue is that ita not insulated. Its fully glycol jacketed just not insulated around the jacket. When I'm crashing I cant seem to get my beer colder than 33.
    I'm running off a 1/3hp line chiller that's dedicated to this tank.
    The glycol is set to 28. We are not getting any freezing in the glycol reservoir and its flowing good.
    The outside of the tank does freeze. Itll ice over pretty solid after 2 days at these temps.

    I know it's a long shot but does anyone have any ideas on how I may be able to get this down a few more degrees??

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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crosley View Post
    I know it's a long shot but does anyone have any ideas on how I may be able to get this down a few more degrees??
    Circulate your beer. The reality is that your beer next to the tank wall is probably sub 33. That cold beer (or even ice) can act as an insulator and stop further thermal transfer deeper into the liquid. It you circulate, you should certainly be able to get colder.

    If your beer is truly only 33 evenly throughout, then you can look at adjusting the flow rate through the jacket to get that final bit of transfer. Although, I would suggest 33*F is cold enough for any necessary carbonating, lagering, or conditioning. You run the risk (perhaps intentionally) of freezing the water in the beer and creating Eisbock. This is a distillation and not legal everywhere, so be aware. If circulating the beer, you will help prevent that concern.

    And use something to insulate the jackets around your tanks. You are giving up a tremendous amount of thermal energy if your outside of the jackets are freezing. It wont make your beer colder, but it will save you $$$ and equipment wear. Just my $0.02!

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnFermentable View Post
    Circulate your beer. The reality is that your beer next to the tank wall is probably sub 33. That cold beer (or even ice) can act as an insulator and stop further thermal transfer deeper into the liquid. It you circulate, you should certainly be able to get colder.

    If your beer is truly only 33 evenly throughout, then you can look at adjusting the flow rate through the jacket to get that final bit of transfer. Although, I would suggest 33*F is cold enough for any necessary carbonating, lagering, or conditioning. You run the risk (perhaps intentionally) of freezing the water in the beer and creating Eisbock. This is a distillation and not legal everywhere, so be aware. If circulating the beer, you will help prevent that concern.

    And use something to insulate the jackets around your tanks. You are giving up a tremendous amount of thermal energy if your outside of the jackets are freezing. It wont make your beer colder, but it will save you $$$ and equipment wear. Just my $0.02!
    Thanks for all of the info. My only reason for getting it down colder was for small scale canning directly out of the brite.

    I'll look into how I can get some movement inside of the tank.

    Any recommendation on how to insulate it. I'm just worried about insulation in a wet environment and the growth of mold.

    Thanks Andy

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  4. #4
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    Are you having issues canning out of the bright at 33*F? - I would think there may be more of an issue with the filling method if that is the case.

    As far as insulation, I have not had to DIY a brewery tank myself, but used closed cell foam. Open cell will pickup and hold water which will increase your likelihood of mold issues. Even closed cell will probably have some mold show on the exterior from condensation moisture and will need to be wiped down periodically.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnFermentable View Post
    Are you having issues canning out of the bright at 33*F? - I would think there may be more of an issue with the filling method if that is the case.

    As far as insulation, I have not had to DIY a brewery tank myself, but used closed cell foam. Open cell will pickup and hold water which will increase your likelihood of mold issues. Even closed cell will probably have some mold show on the exterior from condensation moisture and will need to be wiped down periodically.
    Sounds good. Thanks for the help

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  6. #6
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    33F is plenty cold for canning, we can at 37F out of a non insulated uni-tank with no issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nvr2low View Post
    33F is plenty cold for canning, we can at 37F out of a non insulated uni-tank with no issues.
    I was having serious foaming issues with my small can filler and the company was blaming it on my tank temp. I just wanted to eliminate that point to not argue with them.

    Thanks for the info

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crosley View Post
    I was having serious foaming issues with my small can filler and the company was blaming it on my tank temp. I just wanted to eliminate that point to not argue with them.

    Thanks for the info

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    It could be that your beer is over carbonated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thirsty_Monk View Post
    It could be that your beer is over carbonated.
    This is my suspicion, although most mobile canners I have met carry a Zahm or TapRite to test. Another possibility is not enough line restriction in the filling apparatus. (Filling too fast, causing break-out)

    I would suggest a TapRite or Zahm is a required piece of equipment for anyone wanting to can or bottle. This will help prevent foaming losses as well as improve the consistency of your product.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnFermentable View Post
    This is my suspicion, although most mobile canners I have met carry a Zahm or TapRite to test. Another possibility is not enough line restriction in the filling apparatus. (Filling too fast, causing break-out)

    I would suggest a TapRite or Zahm is a required piece of equipment for anyone wanting to can or bottle. This will help prevent foaming losses as well as improve the consistency of your product.
    I dont love the consistency of the tapritw but just cant justify a zahm right now. I was hovering around 2.7 volumes when we tried to can.

    Thos can filler specifies a super low pressure but with this I was getting breakout in the line leaving the brite. As I upped the pressure enough to eliminate breakout it would cause foam in the filler. This last batch of canning was done at 2.6 and everything worked out fine. I'd like to be a little higher than this but that's where the foaming starts.

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  11. #11
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    I feel your pain. I went thru the same thing a couple years ago.

    I was recommended to raise BT pressure to 18psi when i started canning. I have 15 psi PRV. At the day of canning i increase pressure to 15psi.

    2.6 volumes could be still too much. You could try 2.55 volumes. Do not go below 2.5 volumes because cans starts to be soft.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crosley View Post
    I dont love the consistency of the tapritw but just cant justify a zahm right now. I was hovering around 2.7 volumes when we tried to can.

    Thos can filler specifies a super low pressure but with this I was getting breakout in the line leaving the brite. As I upped the pressure enough to eliminate breakout it would cause foam in the filler. This last batch of canning was done at 2.6 and everything worked out fine. I'd like to be a little higher than this but that's where the foaming starts.
    Never had consistency issues with either, and have compared them multiple times, but regardless your issue appears to be as I stated above. Not enough line restriction (tube diameter). You should be able to can reliably with beer at 34*F or lower easily on multiple styles of filler. Have you verified the in can temperature? Are you rising during the filling process?

    When you are increasing the head pressure to keep gas in solution you are increasing the flow speed (likely). As the flow speed increases, the beer is breaking out from turbulence (it sounds like). Early breakout vs filling breakout. So as you are solving one issue, you are causing another. Some canning process have a standard restriction on the flow of the beer to compensate for this. Some have adjustable flow settings. If we know the model filler, we may be able to offer more assistance. Most models I have run into will cap their open filling at about 2.75 volumes "by the book", but usually you can press that a little bit if you know how to manipulate the process.

    If you are not able to supply sufficient head pressure to keep the gas dissolved while still filling at a slow enough rate to avoid turbulence, you need to lower your carbonation levels. Getting about 2-3*F colder is not going to make a vital impact on your filling, would be my personal assessment. If this is similar to a Cask SAMS type system, where the delivery to the filler is through long tubes, you could potentially restrict the flow by replacing with smaller diameter or longer tubes. I would never recommend this, but I have seen it done successfully in different circumstances - Put a bunch of zip-ties down the filler lines to restrict the flow.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnFermentable View Post
    Never had consistency issues with either, and have compared them multiple times, but regardless your issue appears to be as I stated above. Not enough line restriction (tube diameter). You should be able to can reliably with beer at 34*F or lower easily on multiple styles of filler. Have you verified the in can temperature? Are you rising during the filling process?

    When you are increasing the head pressure to keep gas in solution you are increasing the flow speed (likely). As the flow speed increases, the beer is breaking out from turbulence (it sounds like). Early breakout vs filling breakout. So as you are solving one issue, you are causing another. Some canning process have a standard restriction on the flow of the beer to compensate for this. Some have adjustable flow settings. If we know the model filler, we may be able to offer more assistance. Most models I have run into will cap their open filling at about 2.75 volumes "by the book", but usually you can press that a little bit if you know how to manipulate the process.

    If you are not able to supply sufficient head pressure to keep the gas dissolved while still filling at a slow enough rate to avoid turbulence, you need to lower your carbonation levels. Getting about 2-3*F colder is not going to make a vital impact on your filling, would be my personal assessment. If this is similar to a Cask SAMS type system, where the delivery to the filler is through long tubes, you could potentially restrict the flow by replacing with smaller diameter or longer tubes. I would never recommend this, but I have seen it done successfully in different circumstances - Put a bunch of zip-ties down the filler lines to restrict the flow.
    the one time we had an issue, I used a pipe wrench on a silicone line. just slowly closed the wrench until there was enough restriction and move on. its not ideal but it works in a pinch.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnFermentable View Post
    Never had consistency issues with either, and have compared them multiple times, but regardless your issue appears to be as I stated above. Not enough line restriction (tube diameter). You should be able to can reliably with beer at 34*F or lower easily on multiple styles of filler. Have you verified the in can temperature? Are you rising during the filling process?

    When you are increasing the head pressure to keep gas in solution you are increasing the flow speed (likely). As the flow speed increases, the beer is breaking out from turbulence (it sounds like). Early breakout vs filling breakout. So as you are solving one issue, you are causing another. Some canning process have a standard restriction on the flow of the beer to compensate for this. Some have adjustable flow settings. If we know the model filler, we may be able to offer more assistance. Most models I have run into will cap their open filling at about 2.75 volumes "by the book", but usually you can press that a little bit if you know how to manipulate the process.

    If you are not able to supply sufficient head pressure to keep the gas dissolved while still filling at a slow enough rate to avoid turbulence, you need to lower your carbonation levels. Getting about 2-3*F colder is not going to make a vital impact on your filling, would be my personal assessment. If this is similar to a Cask SAMS type system, where the delivery to the filler is through long tubes, you could potentially restrict the flow by replacing with smaller diameter or longer tubes. I would never recommend this, but I have seen it done successfully in different circumstances - Put a bunch of zip-ties down the filler lines to restrict the flow.
    Thanks for all that info.

    This is on a small Xpressfill 2 head open canner. I have already increased the line length, just coiled it up and I place it in an ice bucket. That definitely helped from what the manufacturer suggested.

    I know nothing's perfect. I was just trying to eliminate 1 variable at a time before I gave up.

    I'm gonna keep tweaking the carb level ever so slightly and see if I can work it a little higher than 2.6.

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