Professional Forums

[Airidini]

BrewinLou,

Great reply. To respond to your questions-The American drinking public that we sell our beers to are the same individuals that also opt to buy imported beers. So what we get are beer drinking people that have a more refined palate to a diverse range of beers of the same style that may or may not perceive a flavor flaw in any given beer they drink often. This diversity of beers being consumed by them may be produced by stainless steel, copper, stone and even wooden vessels. Now that flaw may be a technical flaw of the beer brewed or could be a flavor flaw by trade abuse. However, the flavor flaw that I am writing about is technical. I write technical flaw due to where I am finding these beers- on location as to where it is brewed. Now the issue for the drinking public is not wether or not it is technically perfect beer but for us to make our beers as technically perfect as we can. What makes a mainstream style Pale Ale stand out against all other mainstream pale ales? Technical perfection. Uniqueness is not devoid of technical perfection. I am not implying that your beers be brewed in specific style guidelines or some other requirements but only to be brewed atleast to easily identify that this beer is such and such style and this beer belongs in such and such style, there is nothing boreing about that.
As for my ability to point out the problems I can only write about this matter from my brewing experience, my defined palate to trouble shooting beers and raw ingredients and my knowledge of yeast functions. It simply boils down to experience and the quest for understanding the science behind the brew. An example that comes to mind is: A great chef can readily identify most ingredients used in a specific plate by taste alone. Skill and experience would give him the knowledge to identify a problem in the plate presented, should there be one, and acting on his experience should come to a solution to rectify that problem. In my case I could identify the problem and have drawn a solution but needed to find a possible case study that supported my theory. I have done so since others before me have come to discover similar problems and then published a solution.
The use of multiple strains (4-6 strains) of yeast can be managed, should any given company choose to do so. It may be more time consuming but you do not have to deal with all of these yeast every day. Using multiple strains would bring great improvement to all of the beers brewed under one company's branding therefore earning greater reputation for that company as their beers would go from satisfaction to exellence.

[Ted Briggs]

missing the point?

I did not want to make my answer too long as to bore many people so if there is issue as to part of my answer then please call me out on it and I will clairfy. Thanks.

Too Late.

It seems to me your posting just to start a discussion or perhaps impress yourself? You call your own post an "answer". If you have the answer you don't need to post! I feel this forum works best in addressing specific questions in real world situations. Purely Theoretical talks are probably best left to MBAA TQ or elsewhere. We are busy people and although I also get annoyed by the homebrewers here, if you pose a technical question you will get good answers.

To answer your "answer", reduction of both H2S and So2 are better addressed with yeast choice and process control than with an experimental and impractical procedure. Equipment design has a huge Impact, but most craft breweries are ale-designed and major equipment changes just to produce a few seasonal lagers are not possible. Still, we do manage to make some great Lagers. Great no matter what medals or scores they may receive. I'd be happy to outline specific procedures for you, if you get a job on such a system and are having problems.

Craft-brewing is a Art, Science is a Tool.

[scott isham]

Are you still trying to keep from coming across as arrogant? Good luck keeping 4-6 strains going in the real world.

[Airidini]

Your right Ted you are missing the point....

Ted,
Thanks for your insightful input. Actually, my discussion here is not "Purely Theoretical talks" it is a realty. There are brewpubs, micros and regionals that produce lagers and pils all year around. Moreover, the So2 problem does not lie in solely lagers and pils but towards many other styles they brew. Thanks again.

Sharing this information is food for thought to those of us who strive to better our brews and achieve a heightend goal of product excellence. My apologies if anyone feels offended by my posts.

[Greenbrewmonkey]

Hello folks,

I agree a touch with Airidini. I taste a lot of what he is talking about. Not where he is talking about, as I know little of the local breweries, except for BBC, which has some fine oak barrels (thanks guys!). I give the flavor different names from time to time depending upon the brewery. But mostly I agree with Ted, such things can be managed with careful attention to yeast and fermentation management as well as equipment design. I myself prefer open, flat bottomed, relatively shallow vessels for all types of beer. I receive the MBAA TQ, and while interesting, most of it is not directly applicable to what we can do in our small brewery. Science is science, so indirect application is certainly applicable, and we do as we can ... but an inline diode and precipitate monitoring system? Sorry to be so poverty stricken (as one beer label collector called me when I asked them to provide postage to send them some of our labels), but maybe next quarter.

I also think many of the beer drinking public (and beer judges!) are identifying these characteristics that Airidini describes as flaws as stylistically accurate. And as for imported beer, many are so suffering from age related problems as to make any comparisons, well ... difficult.

As Ted offered, if you wish help in reducing the problem when you are employed, please call or email, and I will do my best to lend my humble assistance as I too do not enjoy H2S or SO2. No not at all.

Cheers,
Ron
Jolly Pumpkin Artisan Ales

[Airidini]

I would think that some amount of copper in the kettle would bring the same result effectively and efficiently driving out H2S and the remaining amount being converted into CuS even further lowering the levels of remaining H2S. This would eleviate the need for some costly unit being inserted into the overall system.
As for the So2, clearly the breweries that I have visited simply do not approach a solution since their beers are being successfully sold to the public already. My opinion is that we can make our brews better however its a matter of choice to act on that or not. Why a make a beer good when you could make your beer excellent? A little extra effort can go along way. Apparently my approach to writing this discussion has only aggrevaited some individuals wether you have posted a reply or not. My apologies. Thanks guys (Ted & Greenbrewmonkey) for offering your help to me- once I am employed that is . Team work creates effective positive outcomes in the brewhouse.

[BrewinLou]

"My opinion is that we can make our brews better however its a matter of choice to act on that or not. Why a make a beer good when you could make your beer excellent? A little extra effort can go along way. "

So what would your reaction be if you presented a kettle modification to your investors or owner and they told you that they did not see the need for it, or could not fit it in the budget. Would you quit? Do not take this the wrong way I am just asking questions.

Sounds like a good idea for one of the brewing equipment manufacturers to take a look at.

Very good point about the age of imports Ron. What kind of fermentation tanks are you using, stainless open top?

[Airidini]

BrewinLou,

Tough senarios to answer. "So what would your reaction be if you presented a kettle modification to your investors or owner and they told you that they did not see the need for it, or could not fit it in the budget."
Hmm, I would first start by finding any published data that supports the idea. In this case there is. My arguement would be better quality beer resulting in economic increase. As for the budget matter- if there is no budget for it now perhaps there could be some funds alotted to the matter in the future? However, an inexpensive action which would require some further thought on how to implement the usage would be removable plates of some sort. Large peices of copper inserted into the kettle that would not impede the whirlpool action or create hot spots during the boil itself. This would require further input from someone on the manufacturing side to fully answer this question decisively.

[jarviw]

Why a make a beer good when you could make your beer excellent?

This is a tricky question... not so much as tricky to the brewer/pub owner per se, but tricky as what is "excellent" beer.

Strangely there are a lot of people out there love this DMS flavor in lager (beer shall remain unnamed). Is it an excellent beer? I think most of us would say no, but they probably sell more of that than most micros! The more corn-flavored beer they (consumers) drink, the more they accept that flavor, and one of those days cabbage lager becomes a defined style. Still an excellent beer?

As much as I hate that particular beer, hey, if their brewers like it, if their consumers like it, who are we to say they are technically flawed?


On the other hand, if we don't like a certain flavor outcome, it is absolutely wonderful we have the knowledge and tools to change it for the "better" that suits our own (or our customers') taste.


Brewing is art, because we get to make it what we want and express what we desire; but it would just be ignorant to dismiss scientific laboratory work as irrelevant and refuse to learn about it.

[admin]

Hey Folks,

I’ve had to delete a few posts in this thread because they strayed off topic.

It is a very fine line that I maintain here on the Discussion Boards. I realize that discussion includes talking about some things above and beyond beer, brewing and industry topics. But, this is not a forum to take on personal judgments. For the most part, we only know each other from this forum. Let’s not judge one another simply from the written word. This forum is indented to be a means to educate, communicate and expand our realm of knowledge as it relates to our profession. We are a brewing community. We are comrades in this great revolution of craft and specialty beer and brewing. Let’s learn from one another. Let’s toss the judgmental comments aside and stay on topic.

Thanks for understanding.

Admin

[Greenbrewmonkey]

Hello Joel,

Yes, stainless open top. Some are relatively shallow and flat bottomed, but we do have a tall thin flat bottomed, and two shallow cone bottomed. And of course some of our beers only see steel in the form of a coolship, and then proceed the next morning into oak, no culture yeast added. Fun stuff.

Back to the CU. Now in the article (I haven't found it yet, where was it?) they used electrolysis to work the ion exchange? Would simply putting copper in the kettle accomplish the same effect? I realize many kettles used to be entirely made of copper, and I think Belhaven still uses theirs, but I also remember (but hey, its been a while) a slight hint of sulfur in their beers? So would CU in the kettle work to reduce sulfur compounds down the line? Please repost the article and where it was published?

Thanks,
cheers,
Ron
Jolly Pumpkin Artisan Ales

[Airidini]

Greenbrewmonkey,

The artical is posted at the MBAA.com site. In the left hand column select Sample Issue scroll down to the very end and there you will find the artical title: "Control of Hydrogen Sulfide in Beer with a Copper Electrolysis System" Luckily, this artical is available to all to read.
Q1.Would simply putting copper in the kettle accomplish the same effect?
A1.Yes, I believe it would create the desired effect especially in the kettle during the boil.
Q2.I realize many kettles used to be entirely made of copper, and I think Belhaven still uses theirs, but I also remember (but hey, its been a while) a slight hint of sulfur in their beers?
A2. Here is where the topic becomes interesting to distinguish between an H2S problem from process (length of boil, and/or vigorous boil) or is it a So2 problem left behind from yeast function? Or a combination? Or trade abuse issues from the bottle of beer you tasted? Sorry that I can not at this time give a more specific answer than that as to your experience of the Belhaven beer you tasted. I need specifics to provide specifics. This last statement rings so true in brewing science. For every action, there is an equal oposite reaction.
Here is some interesting data from the artical:
Copper concentrations in beer-
1958 500ug/l ref. De Clerck
1970 180ug/l ref. Trachmann et al
2001 32.5ug/l ref. Dostalek et al
Also the table under the above data proves valuable data during fermentation.

[liammckenna]

For most of us small brewers, a piece of copper pipe in the kettle (removed for whirling if you use kettle for this) does the trick. I've also seen scenarios where a piece of copper pipe is part of the pipe used to transfer to whirlpool. I've also seen a simple gizmo which allows the insertion of a piece of copper sheeting onto the sidewall of the kettle just below wort level.

I've seen some British brewers (2) titrate a sample on the benchtop with CuS and then add it to a fermentor. Pretty dangerous practise if you ask me, but it's not my beer.

As for the SO2, I would urge you to consider yeast type and water makeup. Once investigated an elevated SO2 problem for a brewery in Ontario. It turned out that it was yeast strain dependent and water dependent (amount of sulfate present) by reducing the sulfate in the water, we were able to significantly reduce the SO2 but unfortunately changed the mouthfeel and palate presentation of the beer. By selecting another (but similar strain) we were able to virutually eliminate the SO2 but retain everything else. I can't remember the mechanism in the yeast physiology, I will look in my notes for it. Most yeast strains (commercial fermenting strains - wine and beer) naturally produce SO2 to varying degrees.

BTW - Interesting thread, but confusing (for presentation NOT content reasons) and pretty long winded. I think we should all try to check our egos at the door ('sign in' page.) Knowing brewers, this may be an impossible request. Both of these issues are extensively discussed in the literature.

Pax.

Liam McKenna

[Airidini]

Liam,

I like the idea of removable plates in the boil kettle however unoxidized copper in the fermenter is dangerous for yeast health. Though I can recall seeing several brewpubs still actively using them (round copper open top fermenters) ofcourse these had oxidized (greenish film) over the copper.

Thanks for sharing your practical experience, good example of an So2 problem and solution in the brewery. What type of fermentation vessel was used?

[dick murton]

I'm going to throw a spanner in the works here because a lot of what has been written here about H2S and SO2 is absolute tosh - assuming you are talking about sulphur dioxide and not DMS characteristic

H2S - a by product of yeast metabolism. Certain strains are more prone to releasing it than others. Much of it is produced by yeast autolysis. Sooo yeast autolysis is also somewhat yeast strain dependant, but largely upon the storage conditions, particularly at the end of fermentation when the yeast sits at the bottom of the vessel under extremely anaerobic conditions, and starts to autolyse. If there is enough, as in big breweries, it will heat up as a result of the autolysi, causing a kind of chain reaction.

High levels of sulphate and sulphite (from any additives if used) in the beer will supply a ready source of sulphur, so you don't want hundreds of ppm SO4 in the mash, but enough to give the required amount of dry character you want.

If you are serving unfiltered beer with if kept warm (trad British "real ale") then H2S can develop in the cask / keg as well.

SO2 - I guess you really are talking about DMS, because the only way you will get high levels is by adding it after fermentation, and even then it is likely to be converted to H2S. DMS - good vigorous boiling and short stands in WP are required to prevent DMS getting through in high levels to the final beer. If you are buying a well modified and kilned malt, the DMS precurser will have been flashed off during kilning

You are right about there being an eltrolytic solution to H2S - but the best thing is to get the fermentation and yeast handling corerct. Its a lot cheaper in the long run.