2 tank questions

[stbenjamin]

I'm looking at equipment for a 3bbl brewery and there were two questions I thought the board might be able to help me with. What are the pros and cons of having the cone of your fermenters jacketed? Obviously it costs more but do you gain a lot for the expense?

Also, under what circumstances would you want to transfer an ale off to a horizontal aging tank as opposed to just keeping it in a conical longer? Should the beer age at fermentation temps (50s-60s) or storage temps (38)?

[mmussen]

Jacketed Cone

Well what I feel is the biggest advantage in having a jacketed cone is how it helps out your yeast. with a jacket on the cone you can ensure that your yeast is cold and stays healthy for the next brew better than without. The cone jacket will also help the yeast settle, and if the 2 jackets are controlled independently you won't have problems freezing your beer when crashing it.

[Roger Greene]

A jacketed cone would be a must. Even after primary fermentation is done, the yeast are still living and generating heat. The warmer it is, the more the yeast respire and more food reserves are used. This would be detrimental when repitching. Also, autolysis would increase and all kinds of bad things would happen to your beer. Cones are actually quite hostile environments for yeast even with cooling, take that away and you can have serious problems. As far as conditioning goes, a horizontal tank gives faster clarification (less distance to travel) but they take up a lot space and cleaning can be an issue. If your FVs are jacketed, they work fine for conditioning (with proper racking). The temperatures to use depend on how you will be handling your beer. Unless you are doing cask ales, mature around 0°C, flavor stability and heat don't go well together. Hope this helps.

[Moonlight]

Another unconventional option would be to have the fermenter in cold room. The insulation (that I hope your tank would have) would keep the cold room air from cooling the fermentation too much, but when the fermentation stopped making heat, then the room naturally cools the tank and prevents that evil heat from having its sadistic way with the drowsy yeast.

Horizontal vs. vertical for your scale may not matter much. What is important is that you separate the beer from the spent yeast to prevent off-flavors from (mostly) autolyzed yeast. That said, it is important to have some residual healthy yeast in your aging tank to nibble any remaining crumbs of either fermentables or immature flavor compounds. Now imagine 1000 barrel tanks configured like a beer can on their sides, vs. one shaped like a standing pencil. There you see how yeast contact in aging would be very different because of tank shape.

[stbenjamin]

Thank you for the responses, I just want to make sure I understand the info I got here. Keeping the cone cool helps promote the health of the yeast that has fallen out of I want to re-pitch it. If I weren't (hypothetically), it wouldn't matter as much.

I can see how the cone being warmer can promote autolysis, though if I were removing the yeast that fell into the cone every few days, even an extended aging wouldn't have an issue correct? Or would there still be some issues with the beer in the cone being a bit warmer than the rest of the beer in the tank?

I was thinking of having an extra tank in the cold room, I could transfer from a temp controller fermenter over to that extra tank to age. If that was the case, would the cold room tank need to be insulated at all? Wouldn't the idea be to get it close to 0C for aging? I wouldn't want to do all of my fermentation with an insulated tank in the cold room, I want to be able to have finer control over the temperature. I suppose I can also put the tanks on wheels (being only 3bbl) and move them into the cold room after removing the spent yeast.

[Moonlight]

"still be some issues with the beer in the cone being a bit warmer than the rest of the beer in the tank?"...yes, exactly.
The purpose of aging is to have, chemically-speaking, a peaceful period where the chemical energies of the freshly-made stew of chemical compounds can all re-shuffle to a state where they are all at the same lowest chemical energy equilibrium. While this includes being cold, more importantly, it requires a stable temperature. (Exactly like storing packaged beer!) Tanks that have cooling jackets yet have no insulation of other parts of the tank create thermal cycling where the beer warms next to the un-insulated tank skin, then convects to where the cooling jacket creates cold areas, and the beer continues to cycle thermally as it continues convecting as long as it is in the tank. (Note that even in a cold room, where the freshly very-chilled air blasts at a certain tank, it will also thermal cycle-just between say 25 and 34F.) This cycling is also horrendous for yeast cells, both for their viability, but especially for their cell integrity-meaning the chance that they will rupture/lyse or at least leak unpleasant flavors. As for the chemical compounds reaching low energy equilibrium (meaning smooth, delicious taste), this cycling is kinda like trying to relax after work yet having your anxious boss call you every 15 minutes.

Yes, you could put good quality casters on them. Personally, I consider that the 0C temperature goal is over-rated. Especially if you are making ales... is that the centuries-old method, or is it more a result of breweries trying to make beer faster and cheaper? Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with that...

[Pompeiisneaks]

My first post. Been lurking for awhile. Would using some of that aluminum covered bubble wrap around the cone, maybe even doubled up, do the trick? Or do you want to buy a jacketed conical that has the jacket go all the way to the cone?

[Moonlight]

Yes and yes. Insulation is insulation.
Cleanability and durability are another matter...but then so is cash flow.
Since insulation only slows down the speed at which heat moves, insulating the tank surface will just delay the eventual heating up of yeast in a cone if in a warm room. Having cooling jackets on the cone will help prevent heat damage lightyears ahead of insulation alone.
There is no one way to do anything in brewing, just a million parameters for us each to choose how to get where we want to go from the options we have at our disposal.

[stbenjamin]

Moonlight, thanks again. I'm definitely aiming for high quality, consistent results so it seems it would make sense to have my main fermenters have jacketed and temp controlled cones. For extended aging (2-4 months) would an insulated fermenter without glycol control placed in a cold room keep the thermal cycling to a minimum? It would save a lot of money over having to get a 5th fully jacketed fermenter.