Beer versus soda force carbonation

[Hofer]

I am in a process to elaborate beer force carbonating in kegs and successive bottling with Beer Gun.

To facilitate these, a pressure gauge and a valve for bleeding were added to a coupler.

When testing the process with plain water, something unexpected for me has happened. Firstly, after the force carbonating, the pressure gauge only shows a pressure for the very first moment. Bleeding or any gas escape causes the gauge to show zero and even vigorous shaking only brings the pressure to about a half of its initial value.

The question is: would it also be a typical behavior for beer or because of beer’s ability to foam, head pressure would re-appear quickly?

And bottling soda with Beer Gun was even more unsatisfying. After filling first 2 bottles head pressure gone and even tank pressure of about 10 psi did nothing to beer to leave the keg.
Beer Gun also supposed to work well with flat beer and quiet beverages so the phenomenon is not clear for me at all.

Any help?

Leonid Lipkin
LiBira Brewery
Haifa, Israel

[BrewinLou]

One item at a time Leonid,
First force carbonating in a keg. The only pressure gauge you need is on the CO2 regulator. The beer must be as cold as you can get it without freeezing. This helps the CO2 disolve much fast into the liquid. You must also leave some head space in the keg, I like to leave a half to a whole gallon of head space. Set your regulator at 30 psi, now you must shake or roll your keg for 5-10 minutes. Then blead the keg slowly down to 10-12 psi to test (taste) your carb level. You should turn your regulaor down as well so you are not bledding out the carbonation you just disolved in.

[Hofer]

One item at a time Leonid,
First force carbonating in a keg. The only pressure gauge you need is on the CO2 regulator. The beer must be as cold as you can get it without freeezing. This helps the CO2 disolve much fast into the liquid. You must also leave some head space in the keg, I like to leave a half to a whole gallon of head space. Set your regulator at 30 psi, now you must shake or roll your keg for 5-10 minutes. Then blead the keg slowly down to 10-12 psi to test (taste) your carb level. You should turn your regulaor down as well so you are not bledding out the carbonation you just disolved in.

Thank you Joel.

Don't feel I can manage force carbonating with your instructions.
You force carbonate with 30 psi that is twice as much as your target pressure
to make it quickly: OK, I also don't want to leave it for a week.
But how do you know that you are even in a ball park?
To check/test your carbonation level you should measure the head preassure in an equilibrium when it equals to a pressure of CO2 in beer.
And of coarse you bleed when you want to lower the carbonation that you just dissolved in.

I force carbonate via the spear so to check carbonating with a regulator I should lower its pressure until getting beer into regulator.

This pressure gauge with a coupler is very simple thing and not my invention at all: it could be seen at NorthernBrewer.com

My question was about strange behavior of soda relating to beer.
The general info on force carbonating here on PB and in many other places were taken into consideration.

Leonid

[BrewinLou]

The method I described does not need a week. That is why you shake the keg.

To answer your question, let me first understand what you are asking. After you have force carbonated your water and then you bleed down the pressure? Do you bleed it all the way down to nothing? Why are you bleeding it down at all? Is it to test how much you have disolved into the water? If you remove pressure or water without adding more CO2 you will lose all pressure pretty fast depending on the size of your vessel. You have to keep CO2 pressure on if you are removing liquid. The CO2 that is disolved will bubble back out of the liquid until equalibrium in the tank is reached or there is no CO2 left in suspention. If you question is does CO2 disolve exacly the same in water and beer, then the answer is no not exacly. They will behave slightly differently.


As for bottling 10psi may not be enough to push the beer out of the keg depending on your hose diameter and length. If you are not getting any beer out of the gun when you press the trigger it is a pressure in issue.

[Hofer]

The method I described does not need a week. That is why you shake the keg.

It is not because you are only shaking it takes 10-15 min. It is because it is cold and the pressure is 30psi when you shoot for 12psi and you are shaking.
Without shaking it would take, suppose, 20-30min.

To answer your question, let me first understand what you are asking. After you have force carbonated your water and then you bleed down the pressure? Do you bleed it all the way down to nothing? Why are you bleeding it down at all? Is it to test how much you have disolved into the water? If you remove pressure or water without adding more CO2 you will lose all pressure pretty fast depending on the size of your vessel. You have to keep CO2 pressure on if you are removing liquid. The CO2 that is disolved will bubble back out of the liquid until equalibrium in the tank is reached or there is no CO2 left in suspention.

I carbonated water just to test the procedure and the gadgets. It didn't help much: when it was beer it got inside the reg and CO2 tank in spite of check valve: posted about it before an hour asking for help.

Why bleeding?
You pressurize with 30psi to get 12psi. How do you know that you got your 12 psi or X CO2 volumes? Suppose 10min shaking is 10psi and 15min is 15psi.
Without pressure gauge you don't even know you are in a ballpark. Of coarse, you can taste. If it is under-carbonated, you proceed with carbonating-shaking for more 5 min. If it is over-carbonated you have no choice but to bleed. You are only bleeding a headspace which is a small part of CO2 relatively to CO2 dissolved in liquid/beer. To know, what is a pressure in liquid after bleeding, you should shake-wait to get an equilibrium and measure it with a gauge. And to proceed this way until you get 12psi or else you want.

If you question is does CO2 disolve exacly the same in water and beer, then the answer is no not exacly. They will behave slightly differently.

It was indeed very differently. So I decided "to jump to the water", i.e. beer.
And got it in the reg.

As for bottling 10psi may not be enough to push the beer out of the keg depending on your hose diameter and length. If you are not getting any beer out of the gun when you press the trigger it is a pressure in issue.

I will check it after solving the reg problem.

Thank you.

Leonid

[DancingCamel]

Hey Leonid -

Back in homebrewing days I used to force-carb the way you're describing. Never satisfied that it was worth the effort - for all the reasons that you're describing. What you should do is gas to 30 psi (assuming a keg at ~0 deg C) shake vigorously (5-10 minutes) and keep shaking until you no longer hear the CO2 coming out of the tank. Then wait a minute and repeat process. Keep repeating cycle until shaking of keg produces no sound of CO2 coming out of tank. Then wait about 10 minutes and what you should wind up with when you attach your bleed hose is a reading of 30 psi on the bleed hose gauge. Then you can start bleeding down the pressure as you described. The problem you were encountering was that your keg was not in equilibrium - maybe because the beer is not cold enough? (It really has to be at ~0 for this process to work)

In lieu of all this, why don't you take one of your kegs and install a carb stone, either directly in the keg or even attached to the bottom of the spear. This keg then becomes your bright tank - you can either bottle or keg from this dedicated keg and the carb stone will get you to where you need to be without over pressurizing first. I know you're trying to save some $ but remember that your time is worth money too...

Good luck.

David

[Hofer]

Hey Leonid -

Back in homebrewing days I used to force-carb the way you're describing. Never satisfied that it was worth the effort - for all the reasons that you're describing. What you should do is gas to 30 psi (assuming a keg at ~0 deg C) shake vigorously (5-10 minutes) and keep shaking until you no longer hear the CO2 coming out of the tank. Then wait a minute and repeat process. Keep repeating cycle until shaking of keg produces no sound of CO2 coming out of tank. Then wait about 10 minutes and what you should wind up with when you attach your bleed hose is a reading of 30 psi on the bleed hose gauge. Then you can start bleeding down the pressure as you described. The problem you were encountering was that your keg was not in equilibrium - maybe because the beer is not cold enough? (It really has to be at ~0 for this process to work)

In lieu of all this, why don't you take one of your kegs and install a carb stone, either directly in the keg or even attached to the bottom of the spear. This keg then becomes your bright tank - you can either bottle or keg from this dedicated keg and the carb stone will get you to where you need to be without over pressurizing first. I know you're trying to save some $ but remember that your time is worth money too...

Good luck.

David

Thak you, David.

The point that missed here that I'm not looking to carbonate to 30psi and then bleed to 12psi.
This method you described is "here and now" technique involving essential keg shaking.
There are other techniques for force carbonating including "slow motion" method when kegs are left in peace for a week at the target pressure.
There are obviously methods in between: to carbonate at elevated pressure to the pressure that is slightly less than the target and then to slow approach the goal.
It is not a big deal anyway.
Rosie posted that he carbonated 20 kegs simultaneously.
My original question was about the different behavior of soda and beer in view of equilibrium state.
Carbonating stone is not a solution for me: it would make me to transfer infinitely.
But now I have a much more severe and urgent problem check valve on reg didn't work and the reg failed.
Do you know where can I get a new reg? And a place to get a proper check valve?

Cheers.

Leonid

[DancingCamel]

I have a few different types of in-line check valves which you're welcome to borrow but you'd have to come down to TA. You could find a hydraulics shop somewhere in Haifa that would also have one but you'll probably pay a fortune - everything here is built for high industrial pressures - 10 + bar. I presume you've tried soaking the ck valve to get the beer out.

The only place that I've bought a regulator here is Gordon's in TA but that will set you back about NIS 300. Again, there must be a hydraulics shop in Haifa that will have all this.

If you're driving down to TA bring all your gear with you and call first - I'll make sure someone's here.

David

[Hofer]

I have a few different types of in-line check valves which you're welcome to borrow but you'd have to come down to TA. You could find a hydraulics shop somewhere in Haifa that would also have one but you'll probably pay a fortune - everything here is built for high industrial pressures - 10 + bar. I presume you've tried soaking the ck valve to get the beer out.

The only place that I've bought a regulator here is Gordon's in TA but that will set you back about NIS 300. Again, there must be a hydraulics shop in Haifa that will have all this.

If you're driving down to TA bring all your gear with you and call first - I'll make sure someone's here.

David

David, thank you for your kind proposal!

I will try to solve the problem "superlocally" but if don't succeed will sure come to your place.

Cheers,

Leonid

[Hofer]

Yesterday was my lucky day.

Lurking on r.c.f. I have found a post on repairing Corny regs, dismantled the reg and assembled it after cleaning. It worked.

The check valve that failed was a barbed one from MoreBeer. I had one piece more and it was OK. (Can't explain to myself why I assumed that both are not fit).

So I continued from the point the system failed the day before: carbed 3 kegs (german slider/flat round fittings) at elevated 30psi for 5 mins at about 3C.

My shaking method was to put the keg on the edge of a cart at "zero gravity" position and swing it intensively but almost effortlessly.

Today I will check the pressure at the equilibrium.

Believe it will be at a ballpark and require minor bleeding or adding
CO2.

Thank you all for help.

[jarviw]

Leonid>

I don't know if there really should be much difference between soda and beer in terms of CO2 solubility. Soda and beer taste very different even at the same CO2 level, and the beer head probably does help to retain CO2 in the liquid while in the pint glass.

But your problem really sounds to me as if you didn't carbonate (your testing water) enough. If you are aiming at 2.5 volume of CO2 in your beer (or water) in the keg, you need to make 2.5 keg volume of CO2 dissolved in your liquid. THAT, will give you the equilibrium temperature-head pressure. It's not about how much head pressure you use to force carbonate your beer, but actually enough CO2 into your liquid. Higher head pressure merely helps CO2 to dissolve to your keg faster.

If you want to make consistent carbonation in kegs, without waiting good many days for the CO2 to dissolve slowly to reach equilibrium, I will suggest you to use a carbonation stone. Actually, have you seen those cony keg carbonation lids? This way you can use the stone and then just switch lids to move to the next keg.

http://morebeer.com/view_product/18212

[Hofer]

Leonid>

IIf you want to make consistent carbonation in kegs, without waiting good many days for the CO2 to dissolve slowly to reach equilibrium, I will suggest you to use a carbonation stone. Actually, have you seen those cony keg carbonation lids? This way you can use the stone and then just switch lids to move to the next keg.

http://morebeer.com/view_product/18212

Jarviw,

Mine are not Corny but "regular" kegs with flat round fittings. So that MB gadget won't comply for sure.

Leonid