Kegging from BBT suggestions needed!

[TheWoodYard]

Hey everyone,

We are opening a brewpub late this summer, and looking for suggestions/solutions for a limited space problem. We were originally planning on serving 4 of our beers from bright tanks but it doesn't look like we'll have room for it, plus I can't predict how quickly these tanks would empty, thus maybe causing a bottle neck in our production schedule. Instead we will be running 4 5HL fermenters + 1 5HL Bright and plan to manually keg from that bright once carbed. I know its going to be a lot more work to do it this way but I'm curious if anyone out there does this, or have tried it? How many kegs should I be purchasing to accomplish this? Any recommendations on manual cleaning/filling setups?

Cheers!

Fletcher

[a10t2]

Filling is dead simple. Just take the plastic check ball out of a coupler, connect the beer side to the bright, restrict the gas side with a valve to control flow rate, and fill using the pressure in the bright.

Washing can be as simple or complicated as you want to make it. If you're going to be using kegs more or less exclusively, it probably makes sense to pay the higher up-front cost and get a commercial unit. If you want to build your own, the only requirements are a pump powerful enough to get a good cascade (1/2 hp or more, I'd say) and enough valves that you can switch water/caustic/air/sanitizer/CO2 for the cycles. The downside is that you're standing there turning valves and can't really do anything else, but ten 50 L kegs should only take 90 minutes or so.

[Packey]

Filling is dead simple. Just take the plastic check ball out of a coupler, connect the beer side to the bright, restrict the gas side with a valve to control flow rate, and fill using the pressure in the bright.

Washing can be as simple or complicated as you want to make it. If you're going to be using kegs more or less exclusively, it probably makes sense to pay the higher up-front cost and get a commercial unit. If you want to build your own, the only requirements are a pump powerful enough to get a good cascade (1/2 hp or more, I'd say) and enough valves that you can switch water/caustic/air/sanitizer/CO2 for the cycles. The downside is that you're standing there turning valves and can't really do anything else, but ten 50 L kegs should only take 90 minutes or so.

Couldn't agree more with the above. The only thing that I could recommend is that you get a few kegs filling at a time with a manifold and a couple filling set ups. http://www.gwkent.com/manifold-1.html

As for cleaning them, it will be well worth your time and money to get a commercial cleaner.

[TheWoodYard]

Thanks for the input guys. I have a few more questions about the kegging process; Do I over carb slightly before filling kegs kinda like you do when counter pressure bottling? How long do kegs generally keep their carbonation volumes when stored?

We plan on filling 2 5HL (4 Bbl) fermenters per week and run them on a 10-14 day cycle then transfer to Bright to carb and then package in kegs. We will have 4 fermenters of that size in total, so what would be a safe number of kegs to have? At least 8 per FV? We are hoping that the majority of/if not all of each batch is empty before the next, thus freeing up kegs throughout the 2 week cycle. Note: we won't be distributing, all is served in house so we won't have to worry about kegs not coming back.

I've seen several other posts about some DIY keg cleaning setups, and they all use caustic/acid cycles. If we are rinsing with hot water or a PBW solution immediately after a keg is spent how important is performing these caustic/acid washes? I know to eliminate beer stone and such its important but how often should we perform these full cleaning cycles? Every time, twice a month, or other?

As you can see I have a million questions about this, if anyone knows a good link that explains this all or can give their input that would awesome.
Cheers!

[a10t2]

Do I over carb slightly before filling kegs kinda like you do when counter pressure bottling? How long do kegs generally keep their carbonation volumes when stored?

As long as you fill relatively slowly and pressurize the keg at the end, I don't think you lose a perceptible amount of carbonation. If you want to give the bright an extra 0.1-0.2 vol CO2, there's nothing wrong with that.

A keg is a sealed vessel. As long as there are no leaks, it will stay pressurized forever.

We will have 4 fermenters of that size in total, so what would be a safe number of kegs to have? At least 8 per FV?

Assuming we're talking about US 1/2 bbl kegs, you'll need nine to keg off 5 hL. Double that to 18 per FV and you can fill them at any time, rather than waiting for the previous batch to be done. That gives you total independence in terms of deciding when to rack to and from the bright.

If we are rinsing with hot water or a PBW solution immediately after a keg is spent how important is performing these caustic/acid washes?

Again, it's a sealed vessel. Nothing bad can happen to it. Leave them sealed and dirty until you have enough to do a cleaning run. Otherwise you're just wasting time and chemicals.

[ChesterBrew]

I've seen several other posts about some DIY keg cleaning setups, and they all use caustic/acid cycles. If we are rinsing with hot water or a PBW solution immediately after a keg is spent how important is performing these caustic/acid washes? I know to eliminate beer stone and such its important but how often should we perform these full cleaning cycles? Every time, twice a month, or other?

The caustic/acid combo provides a large pH swing in the vessel which, in addition to cleaning the inside, will kill any critters that are present.

The gentleman I spoke with at Five Star during CBC recommended P.B.W. and Acid #5 as a good combo, especially if you're concerned about the environmental impact of the chemicals. He said Acid #6 was a step up from #5, but if #5 is used regularly, it may be overkill.

[ConradG]

When you're doing your layout bear in mind that bright tanks are a lot more space efficient than kegs. In a brew pub setting I would consider having some bright tanks to work with. You can always keg off the end of a tank when you need it empty.

Conrad

[Packey]

When you're doing your layout bear in mind that bright tanks are a lot more space efficient than kegs. In a brew pub setting I would consider having some bright tanks to work with. You can always keg off the end of a tank when you need it empty.

Conrad

That's what we do. There is another brewery in my area that has 5 serving tanks and only a couple fermenters. If you're able to start brewing and filling up those brites before opening, you'll be able to keep up with production (hopefully not though).

For the kegs, whoever said to wait until you have enough kegs to do a run without wasting your chemicals, is completely right. It takes me about 15 to 20 minutes to set up our keg washer and about that much time to was four kegs. (Our cycle goes air push, caustic wash, air push, water rinse, CO2 push, sanitizer rinse & hold, CO2 push and pressurize).

[tomhennessy]

Keg Cleaning

I've posted a couple movies on our web site www.coloradoboy.com that show how we clean kegs and fill them. Typically you need about 3 kegs to maintain one tap for outside accounts, though you could squeak by with less since it is all in house for you. Once you are open and start making money I would invest in one serving tank at a time and put it in the walk in behind your bar and serve directly out of it. GW Kent has some affordable ones in your size. You will know soon enough which beers are the most popular and can serve those. Good luck!

[TheWoodYard]

Wow that's awesome guys I really appreciate the advise on everything. Tom your videos are exactly what I needed to see. It definitely simplifies the whole process for me. The manifold you got there is from GW Kent? Does anyone know if there are any suppliers in Canada that would provide valves and manifolds such like that? What would one expect for a total price tag on a manual cleaning/filling setup? Does anyone have examples of some DYI manual multi head fillers? Is it a good idea to have more than one cart pump in the brewpub? I was figuring we could operate using a single 1 Hp pump to do all my tank to tank transfers, as well as the CIP stuff....but I could totally be way out to lunch here. Any input would be great.

Cheers!