Cider setup process feedback

[apeezee]

Try to line up an estimate to get out Cidery up and running. We're pretty green but getting there. Anyone see any potential issues with this equipment plan:

Ferment in ibc. Buy/make a custom racking cane to rack out of the ibc using a self-priming pump. This is done to stay above the sludge in the bottom of the tank. I'm thinking of a GW Kent bulldog type device but with a longer cane to reach the entirety of the ibc. I have a friend that can bend the steel for us. We want to try and use the ibc as our FV because we can get juice delivered in it, ferment, remove solid product and return it to the supplier. Thy clean it and we get a new one with juice. This is nice.

Pump from ibc into a brite tank in a walk in cooler at 35. Brite tank is purged of oxygen before pumping. Allow product to reach 35 degrees and carb.

We can run lines through the walk in wall for co2 and for transfer from the ibc. We're planning on building our own using a CoolBot.

Keg/bottle from brite.

From my reading looks like it will take a few days to carb at 35 using 15 psi in the brite tank.

Before I start buying everything I want to make sure this should work. I'd really appreciate any feedback.

-Andrew

[rdcpro]

Isn't it customary to blend several varieties of juice? Or do you get it blended the way you want it directly in the IBC?

I think you may lose quite a bit of product, trying to rack off the yeast cake in a flat or slightly sloped bottom tank. Wineries often ferment in open 1/4 ton totes. However, they generally press the must after fermentation.

Regards,
Mike Sharp

[apeezee]

Is this what is accomplished by conical? Is it compressing via gravity?

What arrives in the ibc is great juice. You can blend to get whatever you want but for what we're doing right now what's there is perfect.

Other than the product loss without compression, is this feasible?


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[rdcpro]

Is this what is accomplished by conical? Is it compressing via gravity?

What arrives in the ibc is great juice. You can blend to get whatever you want but for what we're doing right now what's there is perfect.

Other than the product loss without compression, is this feasible?

A conical has a 60 degree (typically) cone that has walls steep enough to ensure the yeast makes it down to the bottom when it flocs. I'm honestly not sure in your case how well the yeast and other solids would settle out (probably depends mostly on the yeast strain), but people ferment in dish bottom tanks all the time, so other than the difficulty harvesting yeast, I don't imagine there would be a problem with that. But 1 inch of product left in the bottom of an IBC tote would be more than one inch in a conical of the same working volume, because the cone's cross sectional area is less. If you're not concerned with the product loss, then I'd say try it out--if you're not buying the IBC, there's little risk, if it doesn't clear as well as you'd like.

One thing that would concern me is blowoff. How full is the IBC? I've never fermented cider, but I'd imagine that the fermentation is pretty vigorous. You might get a lot of blowoff, which would also lose product. If the supplier could either oversize the IBC, or under fill, you would have some headspace. I think 25% is the excess capacity in a conical to allow for krauesen, but in a square tank, that might not be enough.

Do you need to aerate before pitching? I guess you could do that from the bottom outlet.

I'd think a diaphragm pump would work well to rack the finished cider, but a flexible impeller pump would also be ok (such as a Jabsco).

Regards,
Mike

[wailingguitar]

I've never fermented cider, but I'd imagine that the fermentation is pretty vigorous. You might get a lot of blowoff, which would also lose product. If the supplier could either oversize the IBC, or under fill, you would have some headspace. I think 25% is the excess capacity in a conical to allow for krauesen, but in a square tank, that might not be enough.

Do you need to aerate before pitching? I guess you could do that from the bottom outlet.



Regards,
Mike

If cider is fermented right you won't get much blow off. Ideally you want to ferment at lager temps, 50-55F... low and slow! Higher than that and you will lose a lot of aromatics. I have not used liquid yeast with cider, only dry. My understanding is that dry is very common, it certainly doesn't need to be aerated. You will, however, want to use yeast nutrient such as Go Ferm and then add Ferm Aid or something similar a couple times during ferment for yeast health. Also, cider is more prone to picking up off flavors from autolysis, so be prepared to get your cider cold and off the yeast ASAP when fermentation is done.

[Jedi]

A conical has a 60 degree (typically) cone that has walls steep enough to ensure the yeast makes it down to the bottom when it flocs. I'm honestly not sure in your case how well the yeast and other solids would settle out (probably depends mostly on the yeast strain), but people ferment in dish bottom tanks all the time, so other than the difficulty harvesting yeast, I don't imagine there would be a problem with that. But 1 inch of product left in the bottom of an IBC tote would be more than one inch in a conical of the same working volume, because the cone's cross sectional area is less. If you're not concerned with the product loss, then I'd say try it out--if you're not buying the IBC, there's little risk, if it doesn't clear as well as you'd like.

One thing that would concern me is blowoff. How full is the IBC? I've never fermented cider, but I'd imagine that the fermentation is pretty vigorous. You might get a lot of blowoff, which would also lose product. If the supplier could either oversize the IBC, or under fill, you would have some headspace. I think 25% is the excess capacity in a conical to allow for krauesen, but in a square tank, that might not be enough.

Do you need to aerate before pitching? I guess you could do that from the bottom outlet.

I'd think a diaphragm pump would work well to rack the finished cider, but a flexible impeller pump would also be ok (such as a Jabsco).

Regards,
Mike

In my experience with nano volumes wirh cider is its less visually vigorous than beer, considering it can ferment 100 percent depending in your yeast you would think the opposite, but the fermentation is slower even if I double pitch. I hydrate but I don't purposely add oxygen but maybe I should.

The yeast cake is also lower volumes likely because in beer there is more than yeast pulled in the cake.

[apeezee]

We've not aerated before pitching and it seems work fine. The tanks are not full to the top so we should have enough headspace. I'm more concerned about the after fermentation process of how I have it lined up. Want to make sure that's feasible.

I was thinking of a diaphragm pump being the easiest to deal with.

I'll have to see if my buddy can weld a TC port onto steel. That would be great so we can have our long cane with a TC on the top.


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[apeezee]

If cider is fermented right you won't get much blow off. Ideally you want to ferment at lager temps, 50-55F... low and slow! Higher than that and you will lose a lot of aromatics. I have not used liquid yeast with cider, only dry. My understanding is that dry is very common, it certainly doesn't need to be aerated. You will, however, want to use yeast nutrient such as Go Ferm and then add Ferm Aid or something similar a couple times during ferment for yeast health. Also, cider is more prone to picking up off flavors from autolysis, so be prepared to get your cider cold and off the yeast ASAP when fermentation is done.

How has your carb experience been? Have heard it can be tough compared to beer. I have forced carbed in kegs before and it took a few days but did take.


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[Kyle.Carney]

It works, but it's not ideal. I fermented a few test batches in IBCs last year.

If you're trying to rack bright cider off of the sediment you'll leave a lot of product behind. I can't give you % fermentation loss, you'll have to figure that out from your own process.

If you're just starting up, and short on cash, this will work fine. But eventually you'll want to move to either a CCV or dish bottom fermenter to recover more cider after fermentation. Otherwise you're just dumping money out with your lees.

Also, find a way to control fermentation temperature if you want any level of consistency. And don't expect that your 35 °F walk in will result in 35°F cider within a reasonable period of time. You won't be able crash cool an IBC with no insulation, but you could pass through a heat exchanger running 27°F glycol on the way to the bright tank.

-Kyle

[apeezee]

It works, but it's not ideal. I fermented a few test batches in IBCs last year.

If you're trying to rack bright cider off of the sediment you'll leave a lot of product behind. I can't give you % fermentation loss, you'll have to figure that out from your own process.

If you're just starting up, and short on cash, this will work fine. But eventually you'll want to move to either a CCV or dish bottom fermenter to recover more cider after fermentation. Otherwise you're just dumping money out with your lees.

Also, find a way to control fermentation temperature if you want any level of consistency. And don't expect that your 35 °F walk in will result in 35°F cider within a reasonable period of time. You won't be able crash cool an IBC with no insulation, but you could pass through a heat exchanger running 27°F glycol on the way to the bright tank.

-Kyle

We were going to pump it out of the ibc and into a brite tank in the walk in. Still looking at long cool down time? Like a week, a few days, or overnight?

Wondering how much a heat exchanger setup would run. We definitely don't have the cash for jacketed tanks yet.


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[Jedi]

If cider is fermented right you won't get much blow off. Ideally you want to ferment at lager temps, 50-55F... low and slow! Higher than that and you will lose a lot of aromatics. I have not used liquid yeast with cider, only dry. My understanding is that dry is very common, it certainly doesn't need to be aerated. You will, however, want to use yeast nutrient such as Go Ferm and then add Ferm Aid or something similar a couple times during ferment for yeast health. Also, cider is more prone to picking up off flavors from autolysis, so be prepared to get your cider cold and off the yeast ASAP when fermentation is done.

At the nano level I have tried at lager, kolsh and room, temps. I have not noticed much differences other than the colder fermentations had less suspended yeast so less yeast taste in the product and a better aroma for the same reason. I have tried dry and liquid yeasts and noticed notable differences with liquid ale yeast. Even though both finish 100 percent AA the ale has more fruit flavor. I do agree about the cold crashing and getting it off the yeast.

[apeezee]

At the nano level I have tried at lager, kolsh and room, temps. I have not noticed much differences other than the colder fermentations had less suspended yeast so less yeast taste in the product and a better aroma for the same reason. I have tried dry and liquid yeasts and noticed notable differences with liquid ale yeast. Even though both finish 100 percent AA the ale has more fruit flavor. I do agree about the cold crashing and getting it off the yeast.

Interesting. I have had good experience with room temp and dry ale yeast. My plan is to get it off the yeast asap. My current plan is to rack through a diy heat exchanger and into a brite in a walk in. I should be able to get it to under 40 degrees via heat exchanger and then it only has to drop a bit more in brite to carb.

What were your carb experiences like? Seems like it may take 24-48h 15ish psi at 35/32 degrees to get carbed. Seem about right to you?

[wailingguitar]

How has your carb experience been? Have heard it can be tough compared to beer. I have forced carbed in kegs before and it took a few days but did take.


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Have it cold, I generally see 33F in my BBTs, and carb through the stone as normal. Typically cider will be carbonated to a lesser degree than beer, I go to 2 volumes, it does't seem to take any longer than beer as far as I can tell... since I am carving to a lower level, in fact, I actually get them to pressure quicker than my beers. As to the pressure I put on the stone, it varies depending on the tank I am using and the wetting pressure of the stone in that tank.

[apeezee]

Have it cold, I generally see 33F in my BBTs, and carb through the stone as normal. Typically cider will be carbonated to a lesser degree than beer, I go to 2 volumes, it does't seem to take any longer than beer as far as I can tell... since I am carving to a lower level, in fact, I actually get them to pressure quicker than my beers. As to the pressure I put on the stone, it varies depending on the tank I am using and the wetting pressure of the stone in that tank.

That's good news. I had been reading that it was more difficult to carb ciders due to less amino acids for the co2 to adhere to. Which at the time made sense. But my experience at home had been simple.

So it sounds like my setup would work? The only variable now is the heat exchanger I need to rig to reduce the cooling time. Was thinking of building a jockey box type of setup with a 102" coil. Micromatic reports that with that long of a coil you can go from room temp to sub 40s at the output. I figure I pump out of he ibc through that into the brite in the walk in. Wouldn't take long at all to get to 33/32.

[Jedi]

Interesting. I have had good experience with room temp and dry ale yeast. My plan is to get it off the yeast asap. My current plan is to rack through a diy heat exchanger and into a brite in a walk in. I should be able to get it to under 40 degrees via heat exchanger and then it only has to drop a bit more in brite to carb.

What were your carb experiences like? Seems like it may take 24-48h 15ish psi at 35/32 degrees to get carbed. Seem about right to you?

I think the carb time depends on your setup and process. Carb stone seems always faster.

I tend to overcarb my ciders on purpose as I prefer them that way. The nice thing is they foam way less when over carbed, compared to beer so I can get away with it.

I'm not sure if ciders can get carbonic acid like beer from over carbing but if they do its probably hard to detect due to it being fermented juice to begin with, combine that with your back sweetening process and product and I bet it would be undetectable.