Building yeast for a 4 bbl

[southpawbrau]

I posted a thread on a 4 bbl Micropub system that I recently started on. We are using a generic Coopers dry yeast and I want to move to a quality liquid yeast. Can I get some feedback on my plan for building yeast the most cost effective way. I may be totally off on this so that's why I'm posting this.

Ok, from looking at White & Zainasheff's Yeast book. They say to use .75mil for ales and 1.5mil for lagers. To determine cells needed, pitch rate X batch size (mL) X Plato. So I'm going with an ale of 15.21 plato. so...
750,000 X 469,390 mL X 15.21= 5.35 tril cells needed

They say that 1-3 bil cells per mL slurry. This is where I'm a little confused. Is this slurry after a cold drop and the actual yeast sediment or could it be say a build on a stir plate? So, am I still going in the right direction by saying...
5.35 tril / 2 bil giving me a 2677mL slurry needed for a 4 bbl batch of ale at 15.21 plato?

If I have a 10 mL vial of liquid yeast and build with...
10mL => 100mL => 1L => ???

Can I go from the 1L starter to a 2.6L starter and pitch this in the 4 bbl? Or do I need to go from a 1L starter to a 10L starter and would that give me around 2.6L of yeast sediment? Or do I need to keep scaling it up to have an appropriate amount of yeast.

Thanks for the help and I know I will get the answer of why not just buy an amount of yeast for 4 bbl, but as I am kit brewing and the Coopers comes in the kit. My boss doesn't see fit of paying that amount when we already have a yeast. Although he doesn't see the difference in quality. I have all of the equipment to build yeast to 10L if needed, but anything higher may require me to purchase additional equipment. Thanks again!

[Scott M]

Your are trying to build a pitchable slurry from a single packet of Coopers Dry Yeast?

Be aware that in doing so you may rob the yeast of the reserve nutrients designed into the product, so you have to add nutrients, watch your pH and aeration. You will derive a higher quality beer by just buying enough dry yeast to pitch. If your boss isn't interested in producing a quality craft beer, then your scenario of building the strain to a pitchable amount will work. The amount of yeast slurry and cell population you will need will be dependent on the gravity of the wort you are inoculating, generally 1 million viable yeast cells per milliliter of wort. Here is a formula I use (1 million) X (milliliters of wort) X (degrees Plato of the wort).

Some good information on lab procedures are available on the web, one here http://www.beer-brewing.com/beer-bre...on_scaleup.htm

Good Luck....

[southpawbrau]

No, it's not just one packet of dry yeast. The particular ale of 15.21 P used 10 ea 15g pkts of dry yeast. I ask this because I have a few strains of yeast from my homebrewing endeavors that I can use. I am wondering the scale ups are in the right directions. Or will a final 10L or the 2.6L build not be enough. I'm not sure where I can stop building. Thanks for the link and input!

Tim

[Scott M]

It's hard to determine cell count from volume, sorry I mis-interpreted your post.

[cjueden]

A hemocytometer is a must for cell counts. Cells counts by volume are extremely inaccurate. Pm me if you need more help, and i can give you my phone #.

[Hazell]

Those yeast count targets are very low.. It should be more like 5-10 million/mL for Ales, 10-15 million/mL for lagers. However, for your scale brewing and considering you are using generic yeast right now, I wouldn't get too bogged down in trying to work out actual cell counts just yet.

A homebrewing 'pitchable' Wyeast (or White Labs) pack inoculated into 10L (2.5 gal??) of sterile wort, mixed and aerated for 24-48 hours should generate ample yeast for that brew length. Just make sure the density has dropped right down so you know it's active. Just tip the whole lot in or chill then decant the liquid and pour in the slurry (if you want to avoid dilution).

Another suggestion... There are some better dry yeast options that may suit your beer style(s)... You can buy in 500g bags from fermentis. If you brew enough to use that much per week or more, this will be worth considering.

[southpawbrau]

So I'm liking what I'm hearing. I will be getting a microscope, hemocytometer and the other needed items to count cells, plate em and also store for long periods.

So a 10l starter (yes, 2 1/2 gal) from a 10ml vial will work. Reading on building yeast, I see frequently that you go 10 fold. 10ml -> 100ml -> 1l -> 10l. Are these many steps really not required?

Thanks for the feedback!

[AnthonyB]

Those yeast count targets are very low.. It should be more like 5-10 million/mL for Ales, 10-15 million/mL for lagers. However, for your scale brewing and considering you are using generic yeast right now, I wouldn't get too bogged down in trying to work out actual cell counts just yet.

A homebrewing 'pitchable' Wyeast (or White Labs) pack inoculated into 10L (2.5 gal??) of sterile wort, mixed and aerated for 24-48 hours should generate ample yeast for that brew length. Just make sure the density has dropped right down so you know it's active. Just tip the whole lot in or chill then decant the liquid and pour in the slurry (if you want to avoid dilution).

Another suggestion... There are some better dry yeast options that may suit your beer style(s)... You can buy in 500g bags from fermentis. If you brew enough to use that much per week or more, this will be worth considering.

The original posters pitching rates were actually higher than what you are recommending, 0.75 million/mL PER degree plato works out to pitching rates of 9-12 million/mL for ales for instance.

Also, if you refer to the Wyeast propagation calculator, their assertion is that a starter made with 1 pack and 2.5 gallons of wort pitched into a 4 BBL batch will result in a pitching rate of 1.45 million/mL.

I second the Safale recommendation. Yeast is one of those things that you seem to kind of get a feel for, double checking with lab equipment every now and then. You get the feel by looking at your resulting slurries to get an idea of yeast vs trub in the slurry, measuring lag times, attenuation, and then checking the beer for excessive sulfur, diacetyl, excessive esters, etc.

[AnthonyB]

So I'm liking what I'm hearing. I will be getting a microscope, hemocytometer and the other needed items to count cells, plate em and also store for long periods.

So a 10l starter (yes, 2 1/2 gal) from a 10ml vial will work. Reading on building yeast, I see frequently that you go 10 fold. 10ml -> 100ml -> 1l -> 10l. Are these many steps really not required?

Thanks for the feedback!

The 10 fold thing holds water, at least on paper. Again if you refer to the Wyeast calculator you will see a progression like:

1 package into 4 gallons (15 liters)
Resulting slurry into 25 gallons (94 liters)
Resulting slurry into 120 gallons gives you a pitching rate of 6 million / mL

[Junkyard]

Little late to the party but this Is definitely a good thread. We just started our nano and to begin we have been making a 3 gallon 10.40 starter with a .5 gram package of fermentis. Then pouring that whole starter into a 1.5 BBL batch after around 36 hours.

Ive deduced this method isn't enough yeast to properly ferment, my brother has been propagating his and has gotten 1.5 batches to blow off in a 60 gallon conical.

Given my limited experience I would probably do the double scale up you suggested before. It's just a pain because at that point you have to ferment it out and use the slurry to avoid dilution. It's always easier to just pitch the right amount of yeast the first time and propagate it seems.

[jat147]

Hey Tim,

We've some experience of this, building pitchable slurries from slants. The tenfold model is correct - but, you do encounter diminishing returns after a point. In fact, I've given up on slants as a start point after too many higher than wanted FG's - even though they'll still work fine on smaller/test batches.
The vials from WL are a better place to start because of the known health/density of the contents.
We have a haemocytometer + scope, but it is really hard to get accurate cell counts - particularly with very flocculent strains (weizen).
I'm no expert by any means - read more at braukaiser, Kai knows all you need.
Good luck.