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PerraHermosa
11-30-2015, 10:55 AM
So, this may be part of the wiring thread I started below but I'm starting a new thread in case it's not
Ok, pump tecnician came, approved the wiring job for our 1 hp pump and left. It runs wired for 110. Foolishly, we didn't run it connected to the spray ball in the uni tank while he was here. It runs but the ball barely turns. It spouts off about 6-8" on each side. It's weak, not hitting the walls. so back to the drawing board. Any thoughts? Are my 1/2" hose lines to blame? But wouldn't that just create more pressure/spinning?

dick murton
11-30-2015, 11:38 AM
Just because you have a 1hp motor doesn't mean anything on its own.

You need to match the sprayball size to the size of the tank (many micros I have seen have CIP heads that are hugely oversized and or the wrong design for the size of the tank being cleaned) and then match the correctly specified sprayhead with the pump head output curve and the supply line restrictions, which is based on ID, length, number of other restrictions such as bends, in line valves (and the types of valves) height of sprayhead above the pump, and any residual pressure over atmospheric in the tank. Just because you have a 1hp motor doesn't mean anything on its own.

However, as a possible quick fix, try larger diameter supply line if it isn't going to cost anything - I suspect half inch is too restrictive.

mmussen
11-30-2015, 12:46 PM
It sounds like the hose you're using is too small. There are other possibilities, but most likely up sizing the hose you're using to CIP will fix the issue. The spray ball has requirements for a minimum flow rate to be able to clean properly. With a 1 hp pump you should be able to get enough flow barring any major restrictions. 1/2" hose sounds like a major restriction

PerraHermosa
11-30-2015, 03:03 PM
So to clarify: the fermenters and spray balls were purchased together, used and taken out of successful operation. I believe it was the 1/3hp March Nano pump that was used to drive these. Photos from the purchase indicate hard the previous set was hard plumbed with 1.5" stainless tubing.
I tested the flow by hooking the spray ball directly to the pump discharge (full port to full port) however the intake is still sized at 1/2" so it doesn't prove anything - the result was the same.
I'm trying to upload a video my low flow rate but the internet is too slow here. I'm just surprised to not see a pressure increase but faster flow. I'll see if I can get the video up.

mmussen
11-30-2015, 04:02 PM
You're going to need more flow on the inlet to get the pressure up, not on the outlet of the pump. If you can't get enough liquid into the pump you wont generate the flow on the outlet.

TGTimm
12-01-2015, 10:00 AM
A 1/2" line into the pump inlet is far too small. Not only will you not get enough flow/pressure, you will get cavitation--low pressure caused by the spinning impeller with inlet restricted will cause microscopic bubbles to form on the impeller. These tiny bubbles produce implosion pressures equal to the pressure of an atomic explosion--much smaller, of course--and will rapidly destroy your impeller. Ask a local out-board motor mechanic to show you what cavitation does to propellers.

Upsize the input to 1 1/2" and the line to your sprayball to 1". Eliminate any restrictions you can, especially before the pump--a T oriented so the pump pulls off the boss (side outlet) is the worst. Learn what the pump should sound like with unrestricted flow, and learn to recognize the sound of cavitation.

If you then need to throttle the pump back, use a valve on the outlet side of the pump--never restrict the inlet.

PerraHermosa
12-01-2015, 01:16 PM
I was able to conduct a mock assembly outside: hard plumbed random bits of 1.5" stainless sanitary t's and elbows from the 1.5" full port clean out on the bottom of the 2 bbl kettle to the intake on the pump. Then I put an elbow and the sprawl ball assembly on the pump discharge, covered the pump and hit the switch.
Boom, water everywhere. (Have a great video but the internet connection won't sustain an upload) Spray ball doing it's thing. Problem 100% identified. In conclusion, as you all suspected, .5" hose into 1.5" pump head does not work. I will now be ordering a couple o lengths of transfer hose from CPE or GW Kent. Thanks for all your help. Hope someone growing their brewery looking to upsize their pumps reads this and is able to avoid making the same mistake.
As I wait a month for the hoses to show, is it possible to use my monkeyed assembly off the 1.5" BK > 1.5" Pump inlet and then attach my .5" hoses on the discharge? And, actually, the hose barb end on the sanitary fittings are 3/8" not 1/2"... Is this asking for trouble with the pump?

TGTimm
12-01-2015, 04:08 PM
Will you be able to CIP the cobbled-together system you're using? Do you have any "dead legs" off of Ts? If you can't CIP the tubing, be prepared to tear-down and hand-clean and sanitize before every run.

If your 3/8" or 1/2" discharge line runs the sprayball well, that should't be a problem.

Extreme constriction of the discharge side of the pump can also result in cavitation. Listen carefully for a "sizzling" sound from the pump--the best I can describe it. It's amazing how fast cavitation can start to pit and erode the impeller--and sometimes backplate and/or volute--of your pump.

PerraHermosa
12-02-2015, 09:43 AM
Will you be able to CIP the cobbled-together system you're using? Do you have any "dead legs" off of Ts? If you can't CIP the tubing, be prepared to tear-down and hand-clean and sanitize before every run.

If your 3/8" or 1/2" discharge line runs the sprayball well, that should't be a problem.

Extreme constriction of the discharge side of the pump can also result in cavitation. Listen carefully for a "sizzling" sound from the pump--the best I can describe it. It's amazing how fast cavitation can start to pit and erode the impeller--and sometimes backplate and/or volute--of your pump.

Yes, I have two T's as part of the 1.5" cobble's together line-in to the pump. Does this create cavitation?

Also, I realized that my pump port in is 1.5" but the port out is 1". Is that a normal configuration. I did not specify with CPE on this. Should I buy hoses accordingly: 1.5" for the intake and 1" for the discharge? Thanks again.

TGTimm
12-02-2015, 10:07 AM
Just be sure the Ts are inline--don't pull from the boss or side-port. This results in a large constriction.

Yes, it's quite normal for the inlet port of a pump to be larger than the outlet--for reasons above. Size your lines to match, but you may have to throttle the pump back by placing a butterfly valve in the discharge line. If the sprayball spins faster than its designed to, it may wear out rapidly.

You'll also need some provision for priming the pump. This can be something as simple as loosening a Tri-clamp fitting at the discharge port of the pump. Air in the pump is much like cavitation--lots of noise, no flow. This is also why the discharge port of the pump is oriented upwards.

PerraHermosa
12-02-2015, 11:06 AM
Great. Thank You.

Any collective advice on hose manufacturers/suppliers? I am looking for 10 feet of 1.5" and 15 feet of 1". GW Kent carries 20 foot sections; CPE has them in those lengths, however I did not have a good experience with them with lead time when I ordered the pump. Anyone else sell them - hopefully closer to Florida?

Edit: I've tracked down hose in-country, but it's dairy hose (they don't have couplers... pura vida). I've started a new thread in "Stupid Stuff" re: using Dairy hose for brewing applications.
http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?52564-Dairy-Hose-for-brewing-applications