wheat extract issues

[svobodajohn]

OK HAve a dme 2 vessel system, can't decoct? or step, that being said, I have made several wheat beers, variuos styles, and have hade extractions well below my anticipated level. About 10 to 12 points in gravity. I have tried different mash programs 148 start and underlet with water to bump up to 158,
154 than mash out. 158 than mash out etc. and I am still getting low yields and more importantly, thin beer. I HATE THIN wheat beer. My finals are low as well 1.008. Iv'e used WL 002 and WL 510. overpitching is a possibility but that obviously dosn't contribute to the extraction situation. Wyermann wheat has been my grain. What to do?

[Jephro]

A few years back I had a problem with a Honey Wheat, 50% white wheat grist, traced it back to our mill. Wheat is slightly smaller that 2-row and about half of it was making it to the mash tun uncracked.
As far as your conversion in the mash tun goes, have you done the iodine test on your last runnings?

"Ain’t no easy answers"

[Sulfur]

Sounds like you need to do a Protein rest. I´d start the mash somewhere around 113 deg F.

[svobodajohn]

protein rest? How?

I have a mash tun only and the only method I could mash the wheat for protein rest to start with wheat, do a rest and then add the remaining malt at sacc. temp. How would I control the final mash temp? (Thanks for the reply). JS

[BMOOR]

change recipe??

I assume you mean you don't have a steam jacketed mash tun. That does make it a bit more difficult to do a protein rest, but not impossible.
If you need more OG, and can't get it with all the things you have tried, add more malt, or have a bag of dried malt extract ready to dump into the kettle. (Don't worry, adding DME to help your ineffiecient Mash tun is not making you a "sell out"-no one will be the wiser )
If you need a higher FG (more body), stick with your 158 sacc rest and try adding about 5-8% Gambrinus Honey malt. Will give you a shade deeper gold, but will add some character that may not seem thin.
Finally, if by saying "mash out" you mean ramp temp up to 165-170, then try to leave that out. Hit sacc temp, leave it for however long you do it, then vorlauff and runoff. Sitting in the mash tun at conversion temp longer SHOULD get you more extract. If not, get a new supplier of wheat, check your mill setting as mentioned before, or add more malt.
Good luck
Matt

[svobodajohn]

Thanks Matt

Sounds good. I like that honey malt as well. I like to mash out (168) to help prevent stuck mash. On another note, it seems to me that evn when I get my mash up to "mash out" temp, at the end of virlauff, the temp of the mash goes way down sometimes to below the final temp of sacc temp. I would think that I'm over converting. Final Gs are always at or below 1.012 on almost every beer. NO rakes in the tun so it may just be a "regional" thing but maintainig high temps at run off rarely happen. Thanks again for your thoughts. JS

[RobZamites]

John,
So you're saying the grain bed temperature drops significantly during sparge, even using 170F sparge water?

Rob

[Sir Brewsalot]

Try monitoring the temp of your runnings throughout your recirc - it can give you a decent impression of how even your temp distribution is within the mash bed. An uneven temp or hi temp gradients could explain BOTH the thinness and the poor extraction. (Low temps in areas making for more fermentables, hot spots not converting at all with temps high enough to kill off the enzymes)

This will sound counter intuitive, but you might also want to go wetter/thinner in your mash. It will allow for better (manual) agitation at mash-in, and will likely make for a more consistent temps.

Also, are you preheating your mash tun before starting? I wasn't doing that well enough for a while here and it hurt my yields - especially in the winter months when the room is at 35F.

I second (or third?) the milling check too.

I am told that 2 vessel systems with unheated mash tuns can be challenging, but since it's the only kind I've used, I'm blissfully ignorant of the alternatives.

Best of luck!
Scott

[RobZamites]

svbodajohn uses pre-milled malt. I'm going with Sir Brewsalot's approach to trying to fix this.

Rob

[Sir Brewsalot]

If it's Briess, this may be relevant: I heard from a local brewer here he was having the similar problems w/ his pre-milled - mostly in the form of a stuck mash, and he found out that they changed to a new mill and had gotten a few calls.

Probably unlikely, but maybe not rule it out just yet?

Cheers,
Scott

[BMOOR]

hmmmm

Breiss, huh? THat raises some Q's for me. We use 40-45% breiss red wheat in an American Wheat and have had some varying OG's. No problems with runoff though. I'm still blaming myself for lack of consistency hmmm.....
Anyone from Breiss want to chime in??
Matt

[zachjenny]

Wheat beers

I don't think anybody mentioned this, but you might look at your mash pH. Wheat beers generally produce a higher pH mash and this could contribute to a lower yield. Are you adding Calcium to your mash, or does your water need it? Just a thought. By the way, what is your anticipated level of extraction in your wheat beers? I've used Weyermann wheat with great results with no protein rest.

Zach

[svobodajohn]

no I don't ad CA+ too a wheat beer mash. That is an essy solution isn't it. It seems my wheat beer is off by 8 -10 points Anticipate 1.050 and get 1.042 1.040. I'll try some CaSO4 next time. Thanks