Mash Efficiency help on system

[lucasmiddleton]

I am needing help with my mash Efficiency. I did simple calculation and got 53% for my mash eff.
I have now brewed 2 batches and have been coming out with a low abv than expected.
I have a 5 bbls system with a mash tun and brew kettle. I sparge to 172 gallons to a boil and boil to 150.
The Mash pH was 5.8 and about 1.5 qt water to pound of grain
For a hefe I do I use 323 pounds of grain. My first runnings is 1.066 and finial running are 1.012 and then my pre boil is 1.043. I was going to boil it down to hit my pre boil mark but it would have taken a long time. That’s why I am think something is going on with the mash. It was supposed to be a 5.1 abv but came out 4.0 abv. I use Brewsmith. What do you think is going on? Is that Enough grain? Maybe milling gap is to big? I am very interested in your response.
Thanks!!!
Lucas Middleton

[jebzter]

Need to know a bit more, what is your target OG? A rough calc on my end, with 323 lbs of grain, 150 gallon fv volume, to hit 4.0% abv your OG would need to be 1.042, if you are indeed boiling down to 150 gallons from 172, with a preboil gravity of 1.043, your post boil gravity would be 1.048 which would give you roughly 63% mash efficiency. That is low for a professional set up, you can probably tighten up the crush a bit or you need to change your sparge/runnoff procedures. But a 1.048 OG that ferments to 1.012 is 4.7% ABV, you would need to get a higher attenuation, of about 80-82% to get to that ABV of 5.1%. So you have really two problems here. If you increase your mash efficiency to 85%, which I would say should be your minimum goal, then you can get up to 6.4% abv with 75% attenuation, so you could then reduce the grain bill to bring it back down. Or you can adjust the mash parameters, and get a higher attenuating yeast to reach your abv target. So knowing the target attenuation and OG, we can zero in on where your problem(s) are. Mostly sounds like a mash issue, but could also be attenuation.

[HopHeadsFWB]

system efficency

Are you cutting off your sparge water early? We run a 4 BBL system Brewmation setup at 92% efficiency. We aim to get 155 Gal pre boil and end up with about 140-145 post boil. We cut off the sparge water at about 115 gallons in boil kettle and finish draining the mash tun. We usually leave maybe a few gallons in the tun when the boil kettle is filled. (We ran short a few times as we figured out how to cut it the closest.) You may be over sparging with water. I also agree with the previous post on crushing the grains properly, check that also.

[mmussen]

Most definitely check your grains. you probably need to adjust the mill to get a slightly finer crush.

Your gravity at first runnings seems pretty low to me, I never see anything under 20 P (1.080) for the start of run off. Here's a couple other ideas that may be part of the issue.
What was your mash temp? Did you vorlauf, and if so for how long? How long was your mash rest?

Your mash pH seems pretty high - you may want to get the pH down into a range that's more friendly for the enzymes.
Depending on the temps you had in the mash, and how well the temp was held you may not be getting full conversion.
Were there any clumps in the mash or was it well mixed? if you've got any dry grains in the mash that's not getting converted and hurting your efficiency.
Did you vorlauf, and if so for how long? How wet was the grain bed when you finished sparging? You may have left sugars behind in the sparge water in the mash.
How's your CA content in your water? Ca helps establish mash enzymes so their effective for longer time periods.

[lucasmiddleton]

Most definitely check your grains. you probably need to adjust the mill to get a slightly finer crush.

Your gravity at first runnings seems pretty low to me, I never see anything under 20 P (1.080) for the start of run off. Here's a couple other ideas that may be part of the issue.
What was your mash temp? Did you vorlauf, and if so for how long? How long was your mash rest?

Your mash pH seems pretty high - you may want to get the pH down into a range that's more friendly for the enzymes.
Depending on the temps you had in the mash, and how well the temp was held you may not be getting full conversion.
Were there any clumps in the mash or was it well mixed? if you've got any dry grains in the mash that's not getting converted and hurting your efficiency.
Did you vorlauf, and if so for how long? How wet was the grain bed when you finished sparging? You may have left sugars behind in the sparge water in the mash.
How's your CA content in your water? Ca helps establish mash enzymes so their effective for longer time periods.

I mashed at 152 for 60 minutes. I mixed the grist well and vorlaufed for 15 minutes. Im in New Mexico and the water is great! I think i need to drop my pH some more.

[lucasmiddleton]

Are you cutting off your sparge water early? We run a 4 BBL system Brewmation setup at 92% efficiency. We aim to get 155 Gal pre boil and end up with about 140-145 post boil. We cut off the sparge water at about 115 gallons in boil kettle and finish draining the mash tun. We usually leave maybe a few gallons in the tun when the boil kettle is filled. (We ran short a few times as we figured out how to cut it the closest.) You may be over sparging with water. I also agree with the previous post on crushing the grains properly, check that also.

I also may be not cutting my sparge off earlier enough. When you drain the whole mash tun you let the grain bed go dry?

[lucasmiddleton]

Need to know a bit more, what is your target OG? A rough calc on my end, with 323 lbs of grain, 150 gallon fv volume, to hit 4.0% abv your OG would need to be 1.042, if you are indeed boiling down to 150 gallons from 172, with a preboil gravity of 1.043, your post boil gravity would be 1.048 which would give you roughly 63% mash efficiency. That is low for a professional set up, you can probably tighten up the crush a bit or you need to change your sparge/runnoff procedures. But a 1.048 OG that ferments to 1.012 is 4.7% ABV, you would need to get a higher attenuation, of about 80-82% to get to that ABV of 5.1%. So you have really two problems here. If you increase your mash efficiency to 85%, which I would say should be your minimum goal, then you can get up to 6.4% abv with 75% attenuation, so you could then reduce the grain bill to bring it back down. Or you can adjust the mash parameters, and get a higher attenuating yeast to reach your abv target. So knowing the target attenuation and OG, we can zero in on where your problem(s) are. Mostly sounds like a mash issue, but could also be attenuation.

My Target OG was 1.054. I think my milling is also part of it

[mark.foco]

Attack the most important factors first. In general, I'd say the biggest factor in low efficiency is in the milling, but difficult to say without seeing your grains, the second is equipment and procedure (grain bed full wetted/mixed and evenly draining, mash out is good, etc...). Assuming these aren't any bigger problems than for anyone else, take a look at other factors. A pH of 5.8 is higher than optimal for enzyme activity, so adding a pH buffer (5.2-5.5) should help some through improved conversion of starches and by lowering wort pH a little which to improve yeast health and attenuation. If your water source is surface water, it is likely soft and the 5.8 mash pH is consistent with that (Soft water has little mineral content to buffer pH naturally) so some other water chemistry adjustment may also help (gypsum, calcium).

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[creeves324]

I would guess your crush is the major factor here.

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[hawksfan881972]

The speed at which you are sparging could also be a factor. It generally takes me an hour and a half to two hours to sparge (15bbl, but size doesn't matter).

Also, the pH and crush are also factors...but without seeing them or knowing your water profile, it's an educated shot in the dark.


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[lucasmiddleton]

Oh wow really mine have been about 45 minutes. I think I will slow down my sparge on it. Roughy what is your Gpm on the sparse coming from the mash tun?

The speed at which you are sparging could also be a factor. It generally takes me an hour and a half to two hours to sparge (15bbl, but size doesn't matter).

Also, the pH and crush are also factors...but without seeing them or knowing your water profile, it's an educated shot in the dark.


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[hawksfan881972]

Oh wow really mine have been about 45 minutes. I think I will slow down my sparge on it. Roughy what is your Gpm on the sparse coming from the mash tun?

We are at about 3-4 gpm. Today we 500 gallons in 2.5 hours (I'm training a rookie, and he stuck the mash).


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[jebzter]

The sparge rate will largely be determined by your mash tun design and crush. We are able to do our sparge in just about an hour, sometimes 1 hour 15 min for larger batches. This is on a 10bbl system running at 92% eff., you should find other breweries with the same or similar to see what they are getting and how long it takes. 45 mins does seem a bit fast, but its pretty ridiculous for a 2.5 hour run off without a stuck mash or something else slowing flow rates down.

[foestauf]

The sparge rate will largely be determined by your mash tun design and crush. We are able to do our sparge in just about an hour, sometimes 1 hour 15 min for larger batches. This is on a 10bbl system running at 92% eff., you should find other breweries with the same or similar to see what they are getting and how long it takes. 45 mins does seem a bit fast, but its pretty ridiculous for a 2.5 hour run off without a stuck mash or something else slowing flow rates down.

Hi Jebzter,

I was wondering if you could elaborate on your system and techniques and how you got such a high efficiency. Who manufactured, wort grant or no, what water do you sparge with (treated RO or straight RO?). Thanks.

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