Vapor Condenser woes

[BH Tavern]

I have a 10bbl system with a new vapor condenser. I've notice a few things in my first couple of batches:
1) The steam doesn't seem to want to enter the vapor condenser. I have a 10" inlet on top of my kettle, so it's not a matter of restriction.
2) When I close the manway, the steam pushes around the gasket. Even if I lock it down, I get more steam coming out the manway gasket than the vapor condenser.
3) If I open the manway, then I am defeating the purpose of a vapor condenser; all the steam directly exits the kettle.

Anyone with a vapor condenser care to offer their SOP?

Cheers!

Noah

[gitchegumee]

I feel your pain...

I won't use vapor condensers any longer due to this and similar problems. As well as using (wasting) more water than a direct vent. I used to have one of these contraptions suck a boil over and pull hops out of my kettle. Glad I don't have that to deal with any longer. I believe that the air inside the condenser "blinds" the steam from entry, creating an air lock. Steam can't come in if air doesn't go out. Can you fill the condenser with water at the beginning of the boil and then drain the water slowly, thereby inducing steam to enter and condense? The condensing steam should suck up more steam. Or perhaps add a compressed air Venturi at the bottom of the condenser to suck steam into the top... Wish I had a definitive answer, but this seems to be a common problem. Although I have seen German systems operate flawlessly. Good luck with this!

[BH Tavern]

Thanks for the tip! Unfortunately I can't put a traditional steam stack out the (30 foot) roof here. I was thinking some sort of exhaust fan inside the tank? Can you describe what you mean by using a comressed air venturi? Is that one of those pneumatic blowers? I do have a large air compressor that I could run a hose from...

My condenser has an MPT on the bottom that drains the unit. Some sort of suck-o-matic might do the trick.

[liammckenna]

You need to address the door/manway seal on you brewkettle. It should seal properly.

Try (with the top sealed) letting the entire system heat up with your kettle vapours before turning on the condensor.

I usually watch for steam coming out of the condensor drain before turning it on.

Once I get it going, it continues to function even after I open and close the manway.

Wouldn't some slight pressure in the brewkettle do the same as a fan or suction?

Pax.

Liam

[BH Tavern]

Well that seal part is certainly true. For some reason, the gasket and back-up gasket are both a bit on the loose side. Nevertheless, when I crank down, it's fairly snug. Snug to the point that once it's boiling, there is a good deal of pressure on the manway making it difficult to unlatch. The thing is, I have to open the manway throughout the batch for hops, and I prefer to not get a blast of steam to the face. It seems to me that if the condenser worked properly, the steam would "want" to exit through the condenser - but it doesn't. Even with a large, clear path, it seems like what gitchegumee said is accurate: "I believe that the air inside the condenser "blinds" the steam from entry"

I had thought that even when the manway is open, steam should still be sucked at least partially into the condenser, but that's not the case, it would rather exit through a nearly sealed manway at high pressure, than through the huge opening into the condenser. If I had a better grasp of the dynamics of the high and low pressure areas coupled with the heat delta between the kettle and the condenser, I would be able to at least understand the problem - as it stands, I'm at a loss. Sticking a sucker at the bottom SEEMS like a good idea, but I'm not sure where to start.

[SouthHouseBrew]

You need to address the door/manway seal on you brewkettle. It should seal properly.

Try (with the top sealed) letting the entire system heat up with your kettle vapours before turning on the condensor.

I usually watch for steam coming out of the condensor drain before turning it on.

Once I get it going, it continues to function even after I open and close the manway.

Wouldn't some slight pressure in the brewkettle do the same as a fan or suction?

Pax.

Liam

Agreed with all of the above.

At the start of the boil, you need to get steam flowing through the condenser and out of the drain (not out the manway), kind of like priming a pump. Then turn your cooling water on. Given that the condenser is full of steam (not air), pressure drops as temperature drops, pulling in more steam. After you've got a good flow of water to drain, you can start opening the manway.

Its not a necessity, but you could install a pressure gauge on the kettle or at the inlet of the condesner. This will show you when the condenser pull is steady. It can also be a gauge of condenser performance (indicate when the system is scaled/fouled). You might also be able to use the gauge to dial in cooling water flow (it may not necessarily need full flow).

Speaking of scaling/fouling, you may check that, both of the steam and water side, especially if you bought the brewhouse used.

All this assumes that your condenser is properly sized. I'm also assuming your not overrunning it by boiling the bejeezus out of your wort.

[BH Tavern]

Agreed with all of the above.

At the start of the boil, you need to get steam flowing through the condenser and out of the drain (not out the manway), kind of like priming a pump. Then turn your cooling water on. Given that the condenser is full of steam (not air), pressure drops as temperature drops, pulling in more steam. After you've got a good flow of water to drain, you can start opening the manway.

Its not a necessity, but you could install a pressure gauge on the kettle or at the inlet of the condesner. This will show you when the condenser pull is steady. It can also be a gauge of condenser performance (indicate when the system is scaled/fouled). You might also be able to use the gauge to dial in cooling water flow (it may not necessarily need full flow).

Speaking of scaling/fouling, you may check that, both of the steam and water side, especially if you bought the brewhouse used.

All this assumes that your condenser is properly sized. I'm also assuming your not overrunning it by boiling the bejeezus out of your wort.

Alright, I will definitely give that a try next time. A couple of things:
1) It's a brand new brewhouse and condenser, used exactly twice and I have a water softener going to that feed, so it's not a fouling issue.
2) It's sized right, because DME custom built it to my system specs.
3) I'm not going full flow from city water, actually just a fraction - maybe 10-15%
4) I may be boiling a bit more vigorously than I should be. I'll keep that in check.

Unfortunately, it's welded on at the top, because DME wanted a LOT more money for a TC. Therefore, I can't put a pressure gauge on the steam inlet, but I could put one at the outlet.

Speaking of "priming" - when I open the manway for hops, won't it come out of prime again? Shutting that manway against the steam when it's not going through the condenser is TOUGH. I suppose I could reduce the boil while I get the door on.

Much appreciated.

[SouthHouseBrew]

...Speaking of "priming" - when I open the manway for hops, won't it come out of prime again? Shutting that manway against the steam when it's not going through the condenser is TOUGH. I suppose I could reduce the boil while I get the door on.

Much appreciated.

If its working correctly, you shouldn't upset the condenser when you open the manway, and you'll probably get less of a steam facial.

[gitchegumee]

Safety first...

Another important point.... You should NOT be clamping down the lid of your kettle during boil. If you do, and there is pressure as you describe, then opening the vessel will reduce the pressure of the boiling sugar solution. What happens to boiling sugar solution when you lower the pressure? A giant eruption of scalding foam as your entire kettle is now above the new pressure's boiling point. Don't ask me how I know and come to fear this now. No need to clamp the kettle manway lid unless you CIP it.

[BH Tavern]

Another important point.... You should NOT be clamping down the lid of your kettle during boil. If you do, and there is pressure as you describe, then opening the vessel will reduce the pressure of the boiling sugar solution. What happens to boiling sugar solution when you lower the pressure? A giant eruption of scalding foam as your entire kettle is now above the new pressure's boiling point. Don't ask me how I know and come to fear this now. No need to clamp the kettle manway lid unless you CIP it.

Now this is contrary to what I've observed. Do you simply leave your lid loosely shut? Aren't you getting a less efficient boil (pot with a lid off)? Won't all of my steam simply exit the manway instead of the vapor condenser; even if it is properly "primed", as it will be the largest opening?

Are other brewers boiling with their manway not locked down? Liam's first post was that I need to make sure I have a really affirmative seal.

Confused,

Noah

[BrewerJ]

Bump

I'm going to bump this thread in hopes that a solution has been found. We have a DME system with the same stack as the OP mentioned, un-welded, though. We have not gone operational yet, but have been testing steam jackets and whatnot and had the same problem with steam not going out the condenser. I'm going to use the tactics stated in the responses tomorrow to see what happens, but overall I'm curious if the OP or anyone else has anything else to add from experiences or tricks.

Thanks!!

[BH Tavern]

I'm going to bump this thread in hopes that a solution has been found. We have a DME system with the same stack as the OP mentioned, un-welded, though. We have not gone operational yet, but have been testing steam jackets and whatnot and had the same problem with steam not going out the condenser. I'm going to use the tactics stated in the responses tomorrow to see what happens, but overall I'm curious if the OP or anyone else has anything else to add from experiences or tricks.

Thanks!!

It has been a delicate balancing act, but I have it working reasonably well. I always clamp the manway down during the boil, and I don't turn the water on to the condenser until it gets very hot to the touch. Then I turn the city water a little at a time until I can feel the condenser get cool up to the top... but not further. Going too far causes water to gush out the side of the condenser (the overflow neck that comes out a few inches over the bottom). It's finicky and a pain, but it works.

[BrewerJ]

Thank you for the insight!