Pre-milled malt

[brewmaster 2011]

I only buy my pre milled malt for BSG Denver. I get 80%+ efficiency with it too.

[Luch15]

We have been using premilled malts from BSG since we opened about 3 years ago. We have on occasion had runoff issues, I have noticed the milling is a bit too fine on occasion. It hasn't been a real problem for us. We have very limited space in the brewery and a mill would really complicate things so this is a really great option for us. I will also say that having a small system (5bbl) that we double and triple batch, the heaving of bags is really not a big deal, in fact we triple batch start to finish in 12 hours, so there is no time savings with a mill, if anything it would lengthen the day I think. We are currently running at 1000bbl/yr. I will also tell you I enjoy not cleaning up dust, and maintaining a mill. For us the cost tradeoff is worth it.

My 2 cents.

[Ted Briggs]

Who is your favorite supplier for pre-milled malt in the Rocky Mountain area? ... Any words of wisdom? Freight rates are pretty brutal for me (N. Central Wyoming).

BSG works well for me. Order full pallets for a better price and to maximize shipping $$.

But I would still buy a mill. 5C/pound x 30k/year (only 500bbl) is 1500$ in your first year saved, Plus you can mill how you want. The downsides of a mill are nothing compared to cost savings and controlling your own grind. Dust issues, Really? Buy a shop-vac and a broom...

[OneMoreBrewer]

Buy a mill

I am sure I may get some guff from other members about this, but really, pre milled malts? I think that there will be a considerable amount of oxidation that occurs between the time the supplier mills the malt and the time your using it to brew. We won't even mill in the night before a brew unless its absolutely necessary. Save money and effort and costs? I've heard you can brew with extracts too! Maybe I'm a purest, but I don't consider it to be the same as brewing from the scratch ingredients. I mean if its all about costs and labor we would all make RTDs. I think that you will have a degradation of your product if you use premilled malts. That being said, your product may be great with use of premilled malts, I just feel it would be better with fresh milled malt.

You can make great beer without fancy equipment. You can make better beer with fancy equipment!

[Bainbridge]

While pre-milling malt does increase the rate at which it oxidizes and spoils, and I know it feels like Sooner = Better, but I do wonder, scientifically, how much that rate increases? And whether it's linear? At home right now and don't have my books handy, but I wonder whether it really makes a difference whether the malt's been milled that morning vs overnight. My guess is that it's negligible compared to any potential cockups you might cause during mash-in by having One More Thing To Do that morning. (As you can guess, we mill in the afternoon before.) But milled that week vs. that month.... Country Malt Group says to use bagged malt within six months and pre-milled within three. If a brewery was ordering malt once a week for the next week's brews most of that malt will have only been ground for a short while. Think the problem will be with stuff like say, Black Patent, where you're using like 15lbs out of 50 and leaving the rest for possibly months to come. There's gotta be an MBAA or New Brewer article on this somewhere.

Then there's the argument that oxidation over-all is bad, but a little bit could be beneficial. Hops can be like that.

[tariq khan]

Premilled Malt

I'm with Dick on this one, used premilled in the UK, never had any problems, of course the maltsters were all close by. Here in Canada I've had to get our mill repaired, as well as the auger, and silo. Very expensive! not to mention the time involved in milling and clean up.

If you could get a guarantee that you would get your malt in a timely manner, I'd go with PM if your brewery is a smallish operation.

T

[OneMoreBrewer]

While pre-milling malt does increase the rate at which it oxidizes and spoils, and I know it feels like Sooner = Better, but I do wonder, scientifically, how much that rate increases? And whether it's linear? At home right now and don't have my books handy, but I wonder whether it really makes a difference whether the malt's been milled that morning vs overnight. My guess is that it's negligible compared to any potential cockups you might cause during mash-in by having One More Thing To Do that morning. (As you can guess, we mill in the afternoon before.) But milled that week vs. that month.... Country Malt Group says to use bagged malt within six months and pre-milled within three. If a brewery was ordering malt once a week for the next week's brews most of that malt will have only been ground for a short while. Think the problem will be with stuff like say, Black Patent, where you're using like 15lbs out of 50 and leaving the rest for possibly months to come. There's gotta be an MBAA or New Brewer article on this somewhere.

Then there's the argument that oxidation over-all is bad, but a little bit could be beneficial. Hops can be like that.

Personally, I am of the opinion that all oxygen is bad, unless I have measured it and placed it where and when I want in a controlled measure (like oxygenating yeast). I don't generally subscribe to an unknown factor unless I have to. It's rather irrelevant whether the oxidation is a linear, or curved equation to me as I can control this factor by milling in immediately before mash in. That would be the point with least oxidation in either equation. Again I don't see anything specifically "wrong" with pre milled, but I don't see where it is any advantage to the product. The 6 roller mill, IMHO will be similar in extract, and possibly problematic in lautering. The in house 2 roller, gives you flexibility to adjust grind. I don't know the cost of the grist case/auger/mill setup, but 2.50 a bag would cost us over $6,500 or so per year and we're not very big. It seems to me the only reason to go premilled is from the cost/labor perspective and not from the product quality perspective.

[Bainbridge]

Agreed. While I think a blind panel would be hard-pressed to tell the difference between a beer milled in that morning and one milled in the day before, I do think you'd notice one milled a couple weeks earlier. It is about practicalities: if you're pressed for space, don't have room for a mill, grist case and an auger, the added cost can be made up for by decreased rent, labor, etc.. It's about the efficient use of the space you have, and the compromises we all have to make. I've seen breweries that have a mill, but no auger or grist case. So they have to mill into buckets or malt bags, then add them into the mash tun. Messy, dusty, laborious. Why bother with that, the labor, space, and equipment expense, if you can get pre-milled bags? It gets down to size, layout, planning. Our mill-room is about 200sq ft, including specialty malt storage and the grist case (we mill straight down into the case and auger over to the mash tun), and it's tight in there. How many nanos and brewpubs have an extra, conveniently located, enclosed and separate, 200sq ft around? Which is why that study mentioned earlier showed that below 1000bbls you get diminishing returns from the mill investment. But if you're up around that level, or have plans to grow past there, it's certainly worth it from both a cost and a quality perspective.

[gitchegumee]

One reason...

Tariq: Why bother with that? Well, it takes us a month on a hot container to get our malt order. No way I could ever buy pre-milled. And we necessarily store it on site in temperature and humidity controlled environment for a month to six weeks maximum after we get it before it's all used. So we mill. No auger--no grist case. It's milled a bit remote from the brewery where we store the malt--not near the brewhouse. I purposely put together our small brewery to facilitate hauling bags to the mash tun easily. Our used mill was $1500 before shipping. (found it on probrewer.com) Oxygen? Sure that's part of the reason we choose to mill, but especially with elevated temperatures. For us, milling is the way to go. Both price and quality of product.

So there is a case to be made for a mill, IMHO. Not so much for an auger--especially without (or AFTER) a grist case. Auger seems to me to be weakest link, so I don't want its eventual failure to be halfway through mash in and ruin product, labor of cleanup, more labor of repair, and scheduling interruptions. Milling into bags isn't that difficult--unless using Weyermann, who's milled product doesn't fit into the whole-grain bag. Labor? It's not that bad for anything around 10bbl. Get some exercise. Dust? Maintain your mill so it doesn't leak so bad; use a tight-fitting chute and a bungee strap to secure your receiver bag; and wear an appropriate mask. Consistency? Buy a sieve set (even if you're buying pre-milled). Milling soon before mashing not only keeps malt from oxidation, but also from rancidity and from going slack.

Dick: Another significant issue with milling malt, or even with dumping bags into the tun is respiratory exposure to malt dust. My biggest concern in chronic brewery exposure. Ever hear of "farmer's lung"? Not a good way to go!

[dick murton]

Re farmers lung. I am well aware of that fact, but pouring bags of malt into the malt hopper and the dust given off by the rest of the milling system produces dust as well. So I reckon it is as broad as it is long. Good dust masks are required in all cases. And I agree that it may be easier to isolate the milling system from the rest of the brewery, so reducing spread of dust throughout the brewery (so better for hygiene as well)

Given your location, and the time taken to get malt from the supplier, then I think you undoubtedly do gain by milling your own. But if the bags have been sealed properly, I wouldn't have thought by much. But since I have no experience of using pre-milled versus milling on site in hot countries, with such a supply distance, this is not based on experience. I have only used "on site" milling in hot countries - with dreadful milling systems in most of the sites, and (referring to another thread) use of high speed centrifugal pumps for moving the mash around in a couple of cases - but this is another story on its own.

Cool country, short distance from supplier to brewer, small brewlength ? I would still opt for premilled, principally for simplicity.

[tariq khan]

Tariq: Why bother with that? Well, it takes us a month on a hot container to get our malt order. No way I could ever buy pre-milled. And we necessarily store it on site in temperature and humidity controlled environment for a month to six weeks maximum after we get it before it's all used. So we mill. No auger--no grist case. It's milled a bit remote from the brewery where we store the malt--not near the brewhouse. I purposely put together our small brewery to facilitate hauling bags to the mash tun easily. Our used mill was $1500 before shipping. (found it on probrewer.com) Oxygen? Sure that's part of the reason we choose to mill, but especially with elevated temperatures. For us, milling is the way to go. Both price and quality of product.

So there is a case to be made for a mill, IMHO. Not so much for an auger--especially without (or AFTER) a grist case. Auger seems to me to be weakest link, so I don't want its eventual failure to be halfway through mash in and ruin product, labor of cleanup, more labor of repair, and scheduling interruptions. Milling into bags isn't that difficult--unless using Weyermann, who's milled product doesn't fit into the whole-grain bag. Labor? It's not that bad for anything around 10bbl. Get some exercise. Dust? Maintain your mill so it doesn't leak so bad; use a tight-fitting chute and a bungee strap to secure your receiver bag; and wear an appropriate mask. Consistency? Buy a sieve set (even if you're buying pre-milled). Milling soon before mashing not only keeps malt from oxidation, but also from rancidity and from going slack.

Dick: Another significant issue with milling malt, or even with dumping bags into the tun is respiratory exposure to malt dust. My biggest concern in chronic brewery exposure. Ever hear of "farmer's lung"? Not a good way to go!

Yeah Philip, your situation totally makes sense to buy un-milled, your location is a bit unique though ;-)

[Cargill Malt]

Premilled Malt

Having worked as a brewer and a supplier I would personally choose to buy a mill every time, with the rare exception of a situation where it was simply not possible due to space or other constraint. I have tasted beer made with pre-milled malt and the beer is very good, so it can be done. However, the science tells us that milling malt weeks ahead of its use is problematic from an oxidation standpoint. Unlike hops where some oxidation of the oil fractions is considered positive (primarily in the UK), any oxidation of malt is negative.

Milled malt is also more likely to pick up moisture, and it is also more likely to attract bugs. There is also a significant decrease in flexibility in buying malt premilled as you do not want your supplier to hold the material in inventory, but rather mill to order. This increases lead times.

As far as brewhouse performance is concerned, I'd much rather be in control of my grind and optimize regularly for my own process, even with a two roll mill.

Again, you can make perfectly good beer with premilled malt. We sell premilled malt because some brewers do require it for their process. You will however make beer that is likely more stable when milling onsite and you will have more control over your process.

Good luck with your decision.

[gitchegumee]

well done...

Very good points by all in this thread. It seems to address most of the issues facing a decision whether to mill or not. Maybe there's a way to "sticky-wiki" this to the "dumb stuff every brewer should know" or at the top of the malt section?

[is_wiz]

milling

Something to consider is how much paying one of your staff to mill all that grain is going to cost you. Milling requires of course a mill but also a place to mill, probably isolated place where dust can't get out. And there is never enough space. That's all hard physical labor that takes time. That is gonna cost you more than having the vendor mill it.

[OneMoreBrewer]

The milling will be done by their employee or yours, so then the question would be... Is my employee cheaper than theirs? To that same degree - I can watch/regulate/control my employee. Does their employee have the same vested interest in my company? Having worked in grains for many years, I can tell you that there are few truly honest employees that would say something if they accidentally threw a 2-row American bag in, instead of a pilsner malt bag. I suspect if your using someone else to mill, that degree of difference will not matter to you.