late additions (10,20,30m) vs. whirlpool additions for flavor, aroma

[barleyfreak]

Since adapting my homebrew recipes to a 7 bbl system two years ago, I have found to get anything near the same aroma/flavor combo I got on the homebrew scale, I pretty much shifted everything except a cursory 1lb first wort addition (mostly to keep the boilover down) to the whirlpool. So for example, my IPA has a 1lb FWH addition and about 12 lbs WP addition (27 IBUs from FWH, 37 from WP). What I am wondering is what am I missing here in terms of flavor/aroma/bitterness contributions from 30min, 15min additions, for example, that I am not using on the pro setup?

Been using Beersmith, which does have a calc for WP additions. But there seems something wrong in his calcs since for example, a 10 min addition of ctz gives an 7.8 IBU, and a 25 WP addition of same gives a 8.0 IBU. Of course the "10min" addition also was in the WP for an additional 25 minutes. In essence, that 10m addition only contributed .2 more in IBU for the 10min it was in the boil. In short, that don't quite seem right to me.

But since I am not yet sending out to a lab to get IBU testing, it's all about taste (and customer feedback), so I am not interested in wholesale changing. Just wondering what others have found in adapting recipes and multiple additions. The only beer I really multiple addition (it's a verb!) is my Imperial Ipa, because, the IBU calcs are ridiculous anyway. All about taste on that too.

Thanks for any sage advice/experience.

[TheCarolinian]

Do your customers seem to like what you're selling?

[AnthonyB]

Just send off for an IBU test. So cheap these days (http://sweetwaterscience.com/beverag...-services.html), can be useful to dial in your system if you want a numerical qualification, but otherwise as TheCarolinian alludes to, if you like it, if its selling well, etc. it probably doesn't matter that much.

[barleyfreak]

Yes,sales are good, I am happy with the results. Not trying to fix something not broken. Just wondering what contributions at 10,20,30min provide in the way of aroma/flavor complexity vs just flameout. And thanks for the lab testing link. That is way cheaper than what I'd looked at with White Labs, IIRC.

[Junkyard]

Our whirlpool isn't quite as long as most pro whirlpools, but we like to do hop bursting, and do heavy 15,10,5 min additions as well as a heavy whirlpool addition. What I think I get from the 15,10,5 additions is not really and better flavor or aroma, but a better integrated bitterness, and less abrasive. The bitterness is still the same level, it's just not that vegetal off putting bitterness that I find too often in IPA's

[jjherbin]

Interested in this topic as well and having a hard time finding hard numbers on whirlpool alpha uptake. Weve just made a new pale that was quite heavily whirlpool hopped, and our software doesn't attribute any IBUs there. A 30 IBU pale on paper ended up tasting closer to 50ibu, but did achieve the aroma we were going for. We are going to try and do a bit of reverse engineering and come up with a contact time and temperature formula to let us best estimate those IBUs. We whirlpool for 10, rest for 15, and have a 45 minute knockout for around 1400l of wort. Any other tips on this topic are appreciated!

Josh

[blonberg]

Our whirlpool isn't quite as long as most pro whirlpools, but we like to do hop bursting, and do heavy 15,10,5 min additions as well as a heavy whirlpool addition. What I think I get from the 15,10,5 additions is not really and better flavor or aroma, but a better integrated bitterness, and less abrasive. The bitterness is still the same level, it's just not that vegetal off putting bitterness that I find too often in IPA's

I'm going to quote myself writing about IPA hopping that I put in another thread recently:

"I generally like to do around 2.5-3.0lb/bbl, split with 40% at FO, 40% at 10 minutes, and 20% at 20 minutes. This doesn't include the bittering hops at 90 minutes. I find that the 20/10/0 gives me the best balance of intense, developed hop flavor, as well as aroma."

In my personal experience, and not trying to speak from any technical standpoint whatsoever, I find this mix gets me the best results for IPAs. The 20 minute hop will give you a nice hop flavor background that develops, but doesn't get lost into the IBU-only background like I think any earlier addition does. At 10 minutes you are crossing the border between flavor and aroma. You should get a little aroma, but at this point it is mostly about setting up the hop flavor base of the beer. This will be more the foreground flavor. At flameout you obviously get the aroma. When I'm planning which hop to use when I always consider my preferences for taste, aroma, and balance, and then set them at their appropriate addition at 20, 10, or 0 minutes. I agree with the above quote that adding hops at these various integers will help the integrate all aspects of hop character, and give you a less abrasive beer.

Here's a cooking example: Garlic has three phases in any dish. A long addition, like an hour from finish will give you depth, richness, and not really develop the flavor of garlic, but will add to the overall character of the dish. Garlic added within the last 20-30 or so will give you garlic flavors, but will be mild and sweet. Garlic additions in the last 5-10 minutes (and getting progressively more intense as you get to "flameout") will be spicy and herbal, and very fresh. It will certainly taste (and smell) of garlic (and this is the addition that will really give you garlic breath). I think that this co-related well to beer in the 20, 10, and 0 minute addition scheme I described above.

Just my perspective.

[Bainbridge]

Ehh, IBUs are proving to be increasingly useless anyway. See e.g. the recent research in the MBAA Technical Quarterly on “Humulinone Formation in Hops and Hop Pellets and its implications for Dry Hopped Beers.”. (Hopsteiner summary here.) In short, dryhopping removes some of the 'traditional' IBUs and but adds a lot of (slightly less bitter) humulinone in, so dryhopped beers taste more bitter than they test out to.

There's anecdotal evidence of 'kettle hops' having a different and 'better' flavor. Remember reading an article on it a from a while back and being skeptical. It was the same sort of 'some people said they liked this one better' study that said first wort hopping provides a 'finer' bitterness.

But here we basically now only do first wort hopping to help the hot break, and everything else goes in the pool at flame-out. My theory has always been: we don't boil our tea, right?

[blonberg]

My theory has always been: we don't boil our tea, right?

You don't usually boil coffee, either, but it is integral to making Turkish Coffee, which is delicious, and the way I have my coffee every morning (sans the sugar and spice - just good quality, single origin coffee).

Not to dispute your opinion, it is as good as mine. Just my food (beverage?) for thought.

[Bainbridge]

You don't usually boil coffee, either, but it is integral to making Turkish Coffee, which is delicious, and the way I have my coffee every morning (sans the sugar and spice - just good quality, single origin coffee).

Not to dispute your opinion, it is as good as mine. Just my food (beverage?) for thought.

And fair enough, yes Turkish coffee is brought to a boil (purists will say brought to a foam, just below the boil, several times in some cases) and it is delicious! But you don't boil the hell out of it either.

But as an experiment sometime do a side by side with a decent green tea you've steeped for 2-3 minutes in water just off the boil, and one you've boiled hard for 5. See what differences in aroma and taste you can find. These are interesting easy little projects, instructive in telling us hour our smell and taste senses work. Even more fun in a group, someone might have a totally different opinion than yours.

[blonberg]

That's an excellent idea. I did something similar with garlic in culinary school based on the advise of a chef instructor. You know how "everyone" throws away any green they find in it? Well, that stuff is extremely sweet and fresh, not hot or sharp or overly spicy or whatever most people assume it would be. It makes sense, the process is like germination in grain, which allows sugars to start, and us to make beer.

I will try this out sometime... I just need to get some green tea... maybe when I hit up the co-op in a couple of months to get the yogurt to do my Kettle Soured Brown Ale.

Cheers

[nickfl]

I would be skeptical that you were getting much in terms of aroma or even flavor from 30 min additions on any scale. I know some people like to do 20, 30 and 45 min additions, but I believe they are pointless since you get no aroma, little flavor and less than the bittering you could get from a 60min + addition.

Personally, on hop forward beers, I use very small or no 60 min additions, a couple of pounds at 15, and almost everything goes into <2 min (or whirlpool) additions and dry (roughly equal split there). Your 12# in 7BBL late addition is roughly on the same scale I have found appropriate, with a similarly sized dry hop addition.

[blonberg]

So, thinking this over a little more - and this question is specifically addressed to Russell, but I'm interested in what everyone has to say - what about beers that aren't supposed to have a lot of hop aroma? I am thinking specifically of a Cream Ale, which is our best selling beer. Would you still pass over "flavor" additions at 20-10 minutes? I do additions at both those points, and skip the F/O hops all together (there is a little bittering hop also).

[Bainbridge]

Well, I mean if it's not supposed to have much hop aroma then yes, don't add whirlpool hops. A little halfway through is nice if you want flavor and some aroma. Generally the view on this is that mid-boil hops are 'wasted' in an IPA because you lose additional aroma you could save. But when it comes to something you don't want reeking of hops, why not boil some of those volitiles off? Moreover, if you like it that way then why fix what ain't broke?