CIP system for 15 BBl; need advice

[QueenCityBrew]

Hello everyone,
I need assistance again. Trying to determine the most appropriate "stuff" I need to build a dedicated CIP system to our 15BBL brewhouse. I want to ask a few quick questions from the seasoned Pro's to make sure I am on the right track.
First: PBW at 145F a proven alternative to caustic soda for the clean cycle? Any ProBrewer's out there completely abandoned caustic? Our system is brand new, no previous buildups, so we feel like if we start with PBW and maintain steady regimen, PBW should work and we can avoid caustic solution, is that accurate?

Second: What volume of solutions should we need to use for our setup? Total volume of cleaning solution? Total volume of rinse cycle? Total volume of Acid rinse? Total volume of Acid based Sanitizer?

As always, ANY HELP or suggestions or war stories are completely welcomed and appreciated. Thanks folks.

[BigWilley]

I use 30 gallons of water and 1 oz per gallon of PBW for the Brew kettle and heat exhcanger. 15 gallons of water @ 1 oz per gallon PBW for fermenters and brites. For a sanitizer you can use 10-15 gallons of water for a 15 BBl tank and you just need to figure what ppm you want based on your sanitizer of choice. I switch between PAA and chlorine dioxide. You can definately get away without caustic. Depending on your water chemistry you may want to do an acid rinse after your PBW. You can check with BIRKO to get a similar alternative to PBW (CELLARMASTR/BRUREZE). At the concentartions listed I will eventually do an acid wash followed by a PBW wash on the kettle. Probably every 20 brews or so.

[Ted Briggs]

"I love the smell of caustic in the morning, it smells like victory"

[BigWilley]

"I love the smell of caustic in the morning, it smells like victory"

Come on Ted, Nothing says brewery like the fresh smell of Iodine!

[QueenCityBrew]

BIG Help

This is awesome information, EXACTLY what I was looking to find. Do you find that you need to recirculate that solution in the FVs for 20 or 30 minutes to get all the krausen residue from the sides? Do you ever need to climb in and take to the brushes to get stuff out? Does the sprayball do a good enough job consistently to avoid using caustic solutions on the FVs? On that note, do you use PBW solutions in the keg cleaning setup as well? Or is caustic just a necessary evil for the keg cleaning? Provided the kegs are older and been in service for a while versus a new keg, or does that make a difference?

[gitchegumee]

Do you find that you need to recirculate that solution in the FVs for 20 or 30 minutes to get all the krausen residue from the sides? YES

Do you ever need to climb in and take to the brushes to get stuff out? ABSOLUTELY NOT! CONFINED SPACE ENTRY SHOULD NEVER BE REQUIRED IN A BREWERY!

Does the sprayball do a good enough job consistently to avoid using caustic solutions on the FVs? YES

On that note, do you use PBW solutions in the keg cleaning setup as well? NO

Or is caustic just a necessary evil for the keg cleaning? IT IS NOT

Provided the kegs are older and been in service for a while versus a new keg, or does that make a difference? IT DOES. YOU MAY WISH TO USE AN ACID LIKE FIVE STAR #5 OR #6 TO REMOVE BEERSTONE. MANY BREWERIES DO NOT USE AN ALKALINE WASH FOR KEGS, BUT INSTEAD USE ACID EXCLUSIVELY WITH EXCELLENT RESULTS. SPEAK TO YOUR CHEMICAL SUPPLIER AND HAVE YOUR WATER CHEMISTRY AVAILABLE.

[QueenCityBrew]

Wow!!!

Wow, Phil you are absolutely "Johnny on the Spot" when it comes to this brew forum. I hope i get to meet you in person someday and thank you properly for all the assistance and information you have provided. These are exactly the kind of answers I was looking to find and I respect them more when they are from credible sources such as accomplished brewers instead of chemical/equipment salespeople.

Although I never make it to micronesia or the Pacific Rim, or for that matter very far outside of Ole North Caroline, I hope to meet you at some Craft Brew conference or trade show in the US and buy you a few rounds of beer to say THANK YOU.

Thank you Big Willey for the valuable info as well.

[burlybeer]

Why the hate on caustic?


In my previous pub I used chlorinated caustic in the brewhouse and fermenters and to a lesser degree the servers with great results and at less cost than the metasilicate products. In the new pub I plan to do the same.

From my cold slimy hands.....

[QueenCityBrew]

CIP suggestions

I have an affinity to caustic solutions due to their hazardous potential. My wife is scared to death for an inexperienced guy like myself to working daily with chemicals that can eat the skin off your body down to the bone. Any chance I can avoid using it, the more comfortable she (and I) will feel about my learning curve process. Keeping the learning curve safer while I make mistakes seems like the best approach. After reading a post about the dangers of "imploding" a FV by using Caustic solutions and cold vessels, I am extremely cautious and nervous about using caustic unless I absolutely have no other choice. Luckily, all equipment and kegs are new, so I don't have to remove the crud of someone else's ineffective processes. Hopefully.

[scruz]

i second burly on this one... chlorinated caustic w/o any implosions or losing my hands to melting off. we just use caution and common sense with handling and usage of the materials and are able to maintain a high level of safety. not to mention the bucks saved on avoiding other chems.

[gitchegumee]

I've used lots of caustic formulations, including one we made ourselves with NaOH, sodium hypochlorite and sodium glucanate. Never had an accident. (Chlorine dioxide is another story!) They work well and the smell is something akin to victory--I agree. But accidents do happen. I know of one well-known brewing author who had a boot fill with hot caustic. I think he still walks with a limp. A coworker of mine bent over near a caustic drum and (this is ironic) his safety glasses fell out of his shirt pocket, hit the floor near the drum, and sent a small chunk of solid NaOH into his eye. He's lucky he still can see. I've seen tanks that have been imploded, and heard from those who have done it, but I'm more concerned with the loss of caustic efficacy that even a small amount of CO2 can cause. The reason we go with PBW lately is that it seems to do a better job unheated, and it is much gentler on the hands. Being in powder form it is also cheaper to ship, and less hazardous as cargo. As far a price per use goes, it's a wash. That said, I've just ordered Birko's Cellar-Master and will give this one a try. I've heard good things about it. PBW works well, but tends to give us a bronze-ish oxylate haze on fermenters when not followed up with a strong & relatively long acid cycle. Hope we can avoid this with Birko's products.

[Rosie]

Queen City,

If you are accident prone, check this thread out for some more ways of not to do it...and be careful!

http://www.probrewer.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=12558

We use caustic in a liquid form here without any issues. I found the powdered form to be more volitile. We also use an additive that helps us cope with hard water...it also keeps stone at bay. Imploding and exploding tanks could happen with cold and hot water alone.

Cheers,
jeff

[BigWilley]

Queen City,
If you dont want to mess with caustic, dont. There is no reason you have to use caustic. If you use caustic and are happy there is also no reason to switch. They both work well when used properly. I have used both and prefer non-caustic for all the reasons mentioned by previous posters. Dont use PBW in kegs unless you are refreshing the solution every hour or so as it loses effectiveness (per Dana at Birko). I use Ultra-Niter Acid on Kegs (Birko) I also use chlorinated caustic as a change up once in a while.
Sanitizers are another area to watch out for. CHlorine Dioxide can be dangerous if you drop the PH too low, it will gas off chlorine. PAA will burn you worse than caustic and turn your skin white with the slightest drop of concentrated PAA. With any cleaner/sanitizer you need to be smart and careful.

[scott isham]

I think it's important to remember that any chemical, regardless of how "safe" it seems and/or is marketed, can be dangerous if used incorrectly or stupidly. Caustic used correctly and safely is just about as dangerous and safe as anything else you might do in a brewery. I wouldn't shy away from caustic just because it seems more dangerous. Having said all that, I use both PBW and caustic. Caustic is much cheaper, but I think PBW just does a better job in a lot of stutations.

[bennybrew]

i am curious as to the distinction between 'caustic' and pbw? is pbw not a caustic?